NetJets Citation X Program

[hawkerpilot]

Looking for as much information as anyone is willing to give. I just received an offer from them for the Citation X but I dont really know anyone there that flies them. Wondering about:

How soon to upgrade?

How soon before awarded 7 on/7 off?

How is the training? Anything I can do to get ready for Jan. 6th?

I have heard that it is heavy on electrical systems....Is this true?

What else should I be asking?

Thanks for any info.

 

[Toploader]

Howdy, I just moved over into the X from the Ultra, and I'll try to answer some of your Q's.

1. Probably close to a year to upgrade in the X

2. Brand new F/O's are bidding for and being awarded 7/7 right out of indoc!

3. If I were you, I'd worry more about Company indoc rather than X type school. If you have X school first, just be ready to go to class for 19 days of training with no breaks. It is a straightforward type rating.

4. No more electrical than any other plane, except that there are two different electrical systems depending on the serial #'s. FSI at CMH will train and test on the Split Bus system. If you go to FSI at TOL, they will train and test on the Non Split Bus system.

As a side note, the X is a smart airplane systems wise. It can tell you what is wrong on the EICAS, so memory items are fewer, and many gauge limitations are only in colors. RED=bad, AMBER=not as bad, CYAN=might be bad, WHITE=status.

6. Just don't buy into some of the company bashing that has become popular of late. Yes, we all know the pay needs to change. It is being worked on as we speak.

It really burns my a$$ when a furloughed guy or a guy from a defunct airline comes in and tells ME how MY company sucks and so does the pay. Although it is not perfect, NJA is a great company, and working conditions and pay will soon rise up to where they should be.

Hope this helps a little,

Toploader

 

[El Cid Av8or]

Congrats on the X offer. Try not to have too much fun in it!

 

[Diesel]

last time i checked upgrades were running less than 6 months for pilots in type.

I'm just an ultra puke though.

 

[cgmason1]

Personally I thought Indoc was the easy part and the firehose training at FSI the harder part. I am in the Hawker 800XPC and have heard the Citation X is harder to learn and a longer course.

You will have loads of time each day at Indoc.
I would recommend trying to learn as much of the memory items, limitations, and SOP stuff as possible. I am sure you would do fine at the type course without looking at anything ahead of time-but if you have the time now-It can only help you in the long run and save you time during the course.
Shoot me a PM and I will put you in touch with some of the Cit X guys. If you know anyone already in the Citation X program maybe they can ask the program manager to mail ya a new hire study guide-this has all the items in it I listed above-and more.

Fly Safe
Chuck

 

[Lrjet55]

I just spoke with some of the X PM's and they mentioned that there are quite a few Captain's and not quite so many First Officers. In my opinion it may be a while because there are a few fellas(including myself) that are looking to bid captain. Either way just put your bid in when it comes out, if you get it great, if not then try again. Either way you are in a great place and you will truly enjoy yourself. Congrats!

 

[trainerjet]

Although it is not perfect, NJA is a great company, and working conditions and pay will soon rise up to where they should be.

Ah yes, the new contract. The one that has been coming any time now for at least a couple of years.

I mean no disprespect and am not out to start a flame war, it's just that I have a question that has occurred to me and was wondering what those close to the situation think. I asked this once on another thread and got no response, so I thought I'd try again.

What incentive does the company have to settle this new contract when there are pilots lining up by the thousands that are willing to wait months and months to accept a job with your company under the current pay and working conditions?

 

[A4Forever]

Hawkerp. Congrats on your job offer. Here is my take on your question (for what it's worth.) I bid capt on the 560XL my 4th day with the company. Many of the "Old Timers" thought I was nuts. Had my SIC IOE and went back for Capt upgrade with about 45 hrs in the plane. Upgrade was not a problem. In retrospect, I would have waited longer to upgrade. 1. More than likely someone junior to you will get a capt bid on the Ultra and trigger your capt pay before you could get a bid and go thru school. 2. Again the "old timers" told me that you could be terminated if you fail the upgrade. (true story as one of my new hire class mates was terminated after 2 tries at the upgrade flight) 3. NetJets has their own way of doing lots of things. My suggestion is to take 12 months on the line learning the ropes. You will get 7/7 much faster as a SIC than as a PIC. You will get all of this again after you get to CMH. Listen Up and make your own decisions. Welcome aboard!

 

[Diesel]

yeah i definetly thought indoc was wayyyy easier. It was a joke. In by 8 out by 5. Fado's by 515. PF changs by 830. Centerfolds by 930. Oh yeah those were the good times.

Don't sweat indoc it's easy. Try to stay awake. The plane stuff is fun but it sucks when they do it back to back.

Welcome aboard.

 

[Lrjet55]

Trainerjet, your tone speaks volumes. First of all, your tone, and for that matter, those of others really dont mean much to us at NetJets. But in repsone to your question the answer is rather complex. There are those that will say that draging this thing out is in the companies best interest because, in short, they alleviate having to pay us what we are asking. But then again there are those that will say that ratifying the contract is of importance to the company because of public opinion with the owners or private sharelholders. Either way those us at NetJets have to go on the information the MEC provides us with and allow them to do their jobs. We are hopeful and expect the best.

 

[Toploader]

Posted by Trainerjet:

"What incentive does the company have to settle this new contract when there are pilots lining up by the thousands that are willing to wait months and months to accept a job with your company under the current pay and working conditions"


This is a strange question from a person with 8,000 hours, but here's something to think about.

Why do the major airlines pay so much when they also have a long line of highly qualified applicants that is perhaps a decade deep right now? Perhaps there is more to getting paid what you're worth than just how many people could take your place.

I believe that NJA will become the premier non-airline flying job in the world after our contract is settled amicably. A contract or two down the road, it may be the premier flying job PERIOD.

Toploader

 

[Diesel]

"I really don't know what is going on, but really don't care that much. This is the best retirement job anyone could have, and I would do it for half the money. Just tell me where to find my Falcon. Never had this much fun with my pants on"

Unfortunatly it's that attitude from the retirees at this company might limit what's coming to us.

There are a lot of guys here that this is their beer money job. Then there are guys like me that this IS their job.

Some of these retirement guys think that a 20% payraise is more than enough. To that i want to beat them with a lead pipe. I hear it a lot on the road.

]"I really don't know what is going on, but really don't care that much.

That one line makes me want to throw this computer out the window.

 

[Cliff]

Unfortunatly it's that attitude from the retirees at this company might limit what's coming to us.

There are a lot of guys here that this is their beer money job. Then there are guys like me that this IS their job.

Some of these retirement guys think that a 20% payraise is more than enough. To that i want to beat them with a lead pipe. I hear it a lot on the road.



That one line makes me want to throw this computer out the window.

I'm at NJA and I'm retired and I think your post is full of bull.. Very close minded...

 

[Cliff]

WHOA.......you guys fly too much when you are on schedule.

1. NJA is not EJI....

2. Yep I fly to much 20 to 30 hours a month..

 

[Diesel]

Cliff while I appreciate your response it's not bull. Talk to guys on the road. There is definetly a difference between what a retired guy wants and someone who is in the middle of their career.

I'm not sure what plane your in but I fly 70-80 hrs a month. You must be either in the 7 or 2000 to fly that little. That also make you want different things. I bust my arse for the whole month. I want what's coming to me.

A right seater in the 2000 just has to start the apu. Definetly a different job.

My point of the original comment was that ther retired guys don't have as much to lose. Say the company says 20% payraise they say fine because they will only be here for another couple of years or less. They've got another source of income.

For us guys who are living paycheck to paycheck we have a lot more to loose. I'm willing to fight a lot harder to do what it takes to get the money and work rules coming to me. I know i'll be here for a long time. I'm going to make sure the work rules are right for the long and short term.

 

[1900cpt]

I have to agree with Diesel on this one. There are plenty of guys that I have run inot on the road that think 20 or 30 percent is plenty. WTF?!?

Maybe if you are getting a retirement from the airlines or a pension from the military. I plan on being here a long time, and so do many others. That kind of increase wont do jack for us.

1900cpt

 

[Gandolf]

It appears that the idea that "retired" guys at NetJets are willing to accept much less out of a new contract is quite prevalent with some pilots. As a retired guy and a NetJets pilot, let me say that I fully expect any new contract to pay the full market rate plus a premium for the extra nights on the road. I am not sure what that market rate is, but three years ago, I was paid more as an SIC on a CE 650 that a 2nd year captain makes at NJA, and for a lot fewer nights in a hotel. I don't see 100% as unreasonable, given the abysmal wages now. I would also expect to see major improvements in fly from home, alternative work schedules, AND enforcement of contract provisions.

Perhaps I am one of the few retired guys who feel this way, but I think a lot of us are not as concerned with the totals on our W-2 forms as some of the younger guys, but we are concerned with being compensated fairly for our efforts. It may be that some would like to work fewer days for the same money they are making now. Some may be more concerned with health insurance, tax deferred retirements, etc. It still comes down to a substantial improvement.

Also, don't forget that the "retired" guys could be the most militant of all the pilots if push comes to shove in the negotiations. If the contract is a major disappointment (or if it is backloaded so that major improvements don't come until Year 3 or 4, NetJets could see a major exodus of pilots who really don't need $45K/year to be pounded with 6-days of "show-at-legal", tour after tour. And should it ever come down to some sort of job action, those retired guys can probably afford to be without a paycheck for a longer time than the younger guys with mortgages and kids to educate.

I came to NetJets with the expectation that professionals at the market-leading company were going to be paid market leading wages and I expect the MEC will deliver that. If they don't, or if the company doesn't, they can call me at the golf course <G>.

 

[Duke of Ale]

I too am a retired guy at NJA and add me to the list of those that will not accept a 20-30% pay raise no matter how good the rest of the contract is. All the retired guys I know are looking for 6 figures in yr 3. I will be a 4 yr Capt this winter and my numbers are 10K/mo and 100% retro lump sum, not spread over time.

 

[1900cpt]

Glad to see that some of the retirees at NJA are throwing in their opinions!! You should ask around on the road and see what kind of responses you get. You might be surprised.


1900cpt

 

[EMB145]

Hoping for a Good, Fair Contract

There is the other side to this story.
Many of the airline fourloughed pilots are very, perhaps too militant. Some mention 300 to 400% payraises with unrealistic scheduling and benefits. I am all out for aiming high, but if it is too high, you might just miss the target completely. The constant mentioning of Warren Buffet and his wealth is pretty ignorant. The contract has nothing to do with that as well it has nothing to do with how many pilots are lining up at the door. I sure would like to continue to work for a financially secure company where we have decent pilot-management relationship. I have no desire to have one or two huge paychecks just before the company is closing its doors.
This is where comperative market analysis comes into play.
Looking at many variables, I don't think 100% raise across the board is unrealistic at all with opportunity to grow into higher paying A/C and better schedule with seniority.
Good luck to us all.

 

[Lrjet55]

Here is my response to the 100% pay raise issue. Everyone is making such a big deal about NJA pilots asking for a 100% pay raise. What everyone is freaking about is the fact that we are asking for 100%. If everyone knew what we made then 100% would make alot more sense.

 

[Gandolf]

You are right that 100% would bring us up to where the market is, but (and it's a BIG but), most of the the country's workforce is lucky to be getting 3,4, and 5% pay increases, especially when inflation and interest rates are running so low. I think it would be hard for most outside observers (and even some inside ones who are used to thinking in historical terms) to have much sympathy for a group asking for a 100% raise, effective immediately. This is especially true for those who have no idea that a NetJets pilot starts at $28K. So while "100%" is a useful shorthand for those who are familiar with the facts, it is not going to garner much sympathy with those outside. They might ask (and rightly, in my opinion), "How could you pilots be so stupid to agree to a contract that would require 100% raise in order to get market-level wages?" Stating the same case as $100K for a five-year captain would make a lot more sense to these people!

 

[Gandolf]

You are right that 100% would bring us up to where the market is, but (and it's a BIG but), most of the the country's workforce is lucky to be getting 3,4, and 5% pay increases, especially when inflation and interest rates are running so low. I think it would be hard for most outside observers (and even some inside ones who are used to thinking in historical terms) to have much sympathy for a group asking for a 100% raise, effective immediately. This is especially true for those who have no idea that a NetJets pilot starts at $28K. So while "100%" is a useful shorthand for those who are familiar with the facts, it is not going to garner much sympathy with those outside. They might ask (and rightly, in my opinion), "How could you pilots be so stupid to agree to a contract that would require 100% raise in order to get market-level wages?" Stating the same case as $100K for a five-year captain would make a lot more sense to these people!

 

[Duke of Ale]

To Gandolf:

I would make that 3rd yr Capt at 100K/yr or better.

 

[EMB145]

Gandolph.

You are correct about the sympathy and the sorry state that requires 100% raise to be at market level. However, sympathy is not required here at all. We are not at the airlines, serving the masses. I don't think many pilots give a rats how the public feels about our pay and benefits. We are an obscure, little company, perhaps make the 15th page in the Columbus, OH paper if we go on strike.
As far as the low salaries go, MY THEORY is that at the signing of the previous contract majority of pilots were transient, enroute to the majors, or retired pilots making beer money and child support to the 4th flight attendant wife. Just like at the (so called)regionals: we will pay you low since you will be leaving; we will leave because you pay us so low. The circle.
The situation is changed significantly here and at the regionals. Even 22 year olds are concerned about good pay, long term benefits and retirement. This may very well be our last job, so let's make it a well paying one, with keeping company health and good employee-management relationship in sight.

 

[Gandolf]

I agree completely. Wherever you are in the industry right now is probably where you are going to be 10 years from now (and that's for the lucky ones)! And the older you are, the more true that is!

It will be very hard for any management to present any flying job as "paying your dues" in order to get the big bucks later on. Consolidation, not growth, will be the norm for 95% of aviation for the forseeable future. And as for making this job something that sustain a decent lifestyle and a final career move, I'm 100% with you. Given my salary progression over the past decade, I fear my next job could be slinging fries at McDonalds<G>.

 

[FracPilot]

They might ask (and rightly, in my opinion), "How could you pilots be so stupid to agree to a contract that would require 100% raise in order to get market-level wages?" Stating the same case as $100K for a five-year captain would make a lot more sense to these people!

To other pilots, that might make more sense. To the general public, that thinks that most pilots are severely overpaid as it is(and I am not referring to owners), I don't think it would help your case.