NetJet, and the approaches used.

[Simon Says]

Do you guys fly the specialized LOC approach into Aspen that gets you down to around 1000ft AGL into Aspen?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Do you guys fly the specialized LOC approach into Aspen that gets you down to around 1000ft AGL into Aspen?

NJI may do something different but NJA uses the VOR-A approach via DBL and ALLIX as far as I remember... haven't been there in over a year so..

 

[gutshotdraw]

There is a new LOC-DME that gets you down a little lower than the old VOR but you still have to dive once you break out (had to do it two weeks ago--even in the G-V it was "interesting"). Much like the VOR and ALLIX intersection, if you don't see the runway by DOYPE on the LOC (about 6 miles out), you ain't getting down straight in. We now prohibit circling at ASE (finally) so if we don't have the runway by DOYPE, happy trails, we'll call you from RIL.

As for the "special" NJI approach, it is still in the FAA approval hopper. It is an RNP 0.3 approach that will (someday, maybe) be approved under new criteria being developed that require certain aircraft capabilities and aircrew training. It includes several "radius to fix" or RTF turns that essentially bring you down the Roaring Fork River. Minimums will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 and 1 1/2 miles for the G-V/550 and a tad higher for the IV/450 (missed approach climb capability). The company has been working on this for years now but claim that "we're really close now." It will be a proprietary approach although that has been a sticking point with certain people along the approval process and that could always change.

If approved, I expect NJI to operate a shuttle service from APA for the entire Netjets fleet whenever the weather goes down in Aspen. The competetive advantage will be HUGE.

 

[realityman]

GSD, just curious. What kind of approach climb performance can you get in the G's at a typical landing weight?

As you indirectly pointed out, it's not really the approach that would be causing most of the headaches, so much as the missed approach.

I can tell you in the Citation X, even at a fairly light landing weight, our approach climb gradient is less than spectacular, especially at that elevation.

Even with great approach climb performance, I think it'd take some big brass ones to fly a 300 and 1 1/2 down to mins in that place!:nuts:

Of course, if winds are out of 330 at 11 knots or greater, most of us don't have to worry about the approach anyway!:beer:

 

[gutshotdraw]

There is a max approach weight listed with the approach plate to make sure you can meet the missed approach climb gradient which is calculated from the missed approach point. Just for grins in the sim while training on the special approach, we balked the landing at 50 feet, at max allowable weight, at about 90 degrees F, and had the instructor fail an engine at first power application. The radar altimeter got down into the 100-200 foot range but we made it. You'd be having a pretty bad day for that confluence of events so it does give you some confidence in the procedure.

Oh, and as for two-engine missed approach climb at max landing weight in the V, the performance is somewhere between homesick angel and scalded ape .

 

[FLYLOW22]

Oh, and as for two-engine missed approach climb at max landing weight in the V, the performance is somewhere between homesick angel and scalded ape .

Never mind that. Give us the goods.

What's it do with one engine chucked??

 

[Diesel]

It will be a while before the IV are doing the rnp .03 special approaches because the avionics aren't set up for it. I guess it has to do with some annunciations and stuff like that.

They don't know if they will have a software update for the IV so we don't practice the approaches because the plane can't do it. Let the 50 series guys handle that tough stuff.

With the IV's being slowly led to pasture they will have to look long and hard to see if its worth spending a couple of 100k on this mod. (which isn't even made yet)

 

[gutshotdraw]

Never mind that. Give us the goods.

What's it do with one engine chucked??

Not bad--as long as you keep enough rudder in and force yourself to pitch up enough to hold the correct climb speed, it'll climb better than the old Hogger 700 on TWO motors

And Diesel is correct. As of now, the IV and the Classic V won't be doing the new SAAR approaches because you can't manually select sensitivity to 0.3 for the entire approach and missed approach segments. Hence, degrade alerts won't function appropriately for the SAAR criteria.

 

[Diesel]

As of now, the IV and the Classic V won't be doing the new SAAR approaches because you can't manually select sensitivity to 0.3 for the entire approach and missed approach segments. Hence, degrade alerts won't function appropriately for the SAAR criteria.

Wow said so much better than I did. Looks like someone stayed awake in recurrent.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Recurrent? There was recurrent? I just thought it was happy hour with a video game first....:beer:

 

[LarryinTN]

Does NJA do any CATII/III approaches?

 

[Diesel]

nope.

 

[RTRHD]

It will be a while before the IV are doing the rnp .03 special approaches because the avionics aren't set up for it. I guess it has to do with some annunciations and stuff like that.

They don't know if they will have a software update for the IV so we don't practice the approaches because the plane can't do it. Let the 50 series guys handle that tough stuff.

With the IV's being slowly led to pasture they will have to look long and hard to see if its worth spending a couple of 100k on this mod. (which isn't even made yet)

The missed for the ASE approach is RNP 1.0 (I thought) so the IV can do it. As for SAR <1.0 RNP missed approach is 50 territory. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Under the original plan for the ASE "special", the classic IV's and V's as well as the -50's would have been able to fly the approach. The major hold up over the past couple of years has been the Fed saying "oh, wait a minute. That's new. We have to create a new type of approach. We'll call it SAAR." Okay, what's the SAAR criteria? "We don't know. We'll get back to you." Fast forward a couple years, and the Fed says "Here's the criteria for SAAR approaches." Guess what? The classic IV's and V's can't meet it. So......

If it ever gets approved, come winter the 450 and the 550 will become the Aspen shuttle.

 

[RTRHD]

Under the original plan for the ASE "special", the classic IV's and V's as well as the -50's would have been able to fly the approach. The major hold up over the past couple of years has been the Fed saying "oh, wait a minute. That's new. We have to create a new type of approach. We'll call it SAAR." Okay, what's the SAAR criteria? "We don't know. We'll get back to you." Fast forward a couple years, and the Fed says "Here's the criteria for SAAR approaches." Guess what? The classic IV's and V's can't meet it. So......

If it ever gets approved, come winter the 450 and the 550 will become the Aspen shuttle.

Cool!!!!! My Bad.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Just regurgitating what they told me at recurrent....I think.

 

[Partyfoul]

Hey GSD and RTRHD......

How do you "manually" select the RNP for the 50 Series? I was always taught that it is automatic based on track miles and type of procedure you have selected in the FMS..? The IV and V cannnot be because the CDI does not change to the lower scaling hence having to use the FD for an RNP approach.
Thanks for any info....

 

[gutshotdraw]

It's somewhere off the NAV page. I'd have to push a couple buttons to get there. Kind of like, I could do it but I couldn't TELL you how to do it. The selection is ultimately on the 1L key once you get to the right page. You also have to de-select DME/DME updating. Then you have to remember to put it all back once you're done.....

 

[RTRHD]

Hey GSD and RTRHD......

How do you "manually" select the RNP for the 50 Series? I was always taught that it is automatic based on track miles and type of procedure you have selected in the FMS..? The IV and V cannnot be because the CDI does not change to the lower scaling hence having to use the FD for an RNP approach.
Thanks for any info....

I can't find the exact page either. I don't have a program for the MCDU. But like GSD said it's on the Nav pages in 1L.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Position Sensors page. Select VOR/DME. Delete 1L. Delete 2L. Repeat on MCDU 2 and 3.

Progress Page 2 Type 0.3 and select 1L.

Confirm GPS is the FMS navigation mode, check RAIM, use vertical profile, crosscheck altimeters by the FAF, monitor RNP and EPU throughout approach on the PFD.

E I E I O....