Need to be talked into it now

[PilotOnTheRise]

Thanks to everyone who responded and answered my questions regarding Navy and Air Force flying. Now that I know that military flying is an option to me, I need to be talked into it. What are some of the pros/cons of military flying/life VS. civilian flying/life. I will be heading to college next year and thus need to make a decision pretty soon as whether to join ROTC, etc. Anyone in this current boat or who has been through it ... advice!?

~THANKS!

 

[MDPilot]

In fact if it is not a burning, all-encompassing determined desire to be a MILITARY pilot, you'll never make it through pilot training anyway. You'll just take someone else's slot until you either SIE or get washed out. Make it easier on your classmates, your instructor and most of all, yourself. Stop now! As a former UPT instructor, I kindly ask you to leave the military flying to someone who has the drive, determination, and desire. Those folks don't NEED to be "talked into it."

 

[BeerNear]

WOW!!!

Pros: You get to see the world if you make it through UPT.

Cons: After a successful bailout or ejection, getting your throat slashed after the Taliban disembowels you alive.

Hope this helps your decision,

Love,

BN

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Actually, I somewhat do have a desire to fly military. But also I have a desire to fly civilian. That is the problem. Im half and half and need something to be said that will make me chose one over the other. If I were to go military, I would love it ... as far as getting to fly, it would not be something I'd wash out of. Its hard to explain the feeling I have ...

 

[BeerNear]

It's a hare

PilotOnTheRise,

There are no guarantees in the military. I've seen guys and gals that have multiple ratings have all kinds of problems with UPT. Some students can't help but to "sell Buicks" (PUKE) on nearly every ride until they throw in the towel. It's not a PFT program. The AF has only a certain number of bananas to use when teaching students to fly.

If you are not committed 100% to the military side of the house, I recommend to delay your choice until you are. There is a 10 year commitment associated with UPT. If you don't like it after 2 years, things will get rough, especially with the current and future operations tempo. Some flying will be fun, but more than likely, a lot of it will be tough and sometimes hair raising.

Something that is positive about the mil is the friends you will make. Nothing brings people together better than hardship. The friends I have made while at home or deployed will stay with me forever.

I'm not good with words but I'll try to express myself the best I can. This is not a light decision. You are not deciding whether to join Boy Scouts or not. You are not deciding which college you are going to attend. If you join the AF and fly, it is certain that you will be thrown to the wolves. And unfortunately, you can be killed.

Hope this helps,

BN

 

[BeerNear]

Oh, by the way, it's a hare.

Patmack,

It's a hare from Hash House Harriers. Group of runners chase a designated hare through swamps, desert, the city, briar patches, etc, all while drinking beer at the same time. Good fun.

If you are interested, there are HHH in almost every city in the world.

I'm a runner and this gives me the excuse to go out and have fun instead of training for races. The beer is good too. Stick to light beer, it stays down better.

On On,

BN

 

[CCDiscoB]

Actually, I somewhat do have a desire to fly military. But also I have a desire to fly civilian. That is the problem.

Let me help you. Go civilian, now. Having "somewhat of a desire" will not carry you through UPT. Your classmates, many of whom will have spent 4 years at a service academy, solely for the opportunity to become a military pilot, won't appreciate you’re “recent” decision to become a military pilot.

Will “somewhat of a desire” last the 11-year commitment? Will it carry you when you get assigned a helicopter? (No offense to my rotor wing friends) Will it carry you when you are sitting in desert stink box flying once, maybe twice a week? Will it carry you when you are only getting 200 hrs a year? Or have you considered the two worst-case scenarios? You wash out and are assigned a desk, or you are assigned a non-flying job at the 8-year point. That’s just the AF side, it gets worse when I throw a Navy slat to this argument. Personally, I loved it, except some of the things I mentioned, but then again, I wanted to be a military pilot for a long time.

 

[dragon]

What's your goal?

Is it to serve your country and fly for the military and maybe an airline career or is it to be an airline pilot. If you just want to fly for the airlines go civilian.

However, if you want to serve your country for a little while before you fly for the airlines go military. Now there is also the guard option which would have you serve your state and get trained. I'm sure they have a commitment of service but I don't know what it is.

Myself, I wanted to fly period. At the time, the options were limited and I chose to go the Navy route. They put me through college (not the USNA) and I went to flight school. There were some times I really wondered if I was doing the right thing, but they all fell away when I put on the wings.

Yes, if you fail, you will be sent to a boat or a desk depending on the service you choose, but in the imortal words of JFK "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country!"

Bottom line: Serve because you want to.

 

[AlbieF15]

Maybe I can offers some perspective...

When I was in college, one semester I had another pilot for a roommate. His dad was a Delta Captain, and he had been in/on/around airplanes since he was a kid. He loved to fly, was one the most upbeat and outgoing guys I ever met, and was one of only a handful of 21 year old guys with a DC-3 type rating (flew jumpers on weekends). He didn't have a CFI, but built his time flying jumpers and flying for fun in a C-140 and a Talorcraft he, his dad, and his brother owned. He was hired by ASA as soon as he graduated, and flew there for one year. AA hired him in 88-89 timeframe, and he's been there ever since...now he's a Captain on the MD88 out west.

Ironically, he had an interview lined up at the Georgia ANG (back then they still flew Eagles at Dobbins), but the interview date ended up conflicting with his AA class. Talk about a gut check! Ultimately, he decided to stick out his class with AA and let the ANG slide by.

Now...my old roomie has had a GREAT life...and will likely always make more money than I do. However, providing he gets to fly until 60, he will spend over 35 years at one job at AA. Not a bad life, but when we have talked he always mentioned the "I coulda..." about the F15 unit and asks how I enjoyed my career.

Contrast that with the typical military guy...he flies 7, 14, or 20 years or so then hits the airlines in his mid 30s to early 40s. At best, he will have a 25 year career, more likely 18-23 years. He'll have some neat stories, some good buddies, and the pride of having served. He will also be junior for his entire career to those guys who started early, and his lifetime earnings may or may not be equal to those fast starters.

I'm a bit more pragmatic that some on the boards...although I stayed active 14 years and (hopefully) will make 20 years in the ANG, I NEVER had any intention of hanging around the AF after my initial committment was up. I had no desire to be career military pilot even in UPT. I wanted to get my wings...serve a few years...and then go be a Delta Air Lines pilot (like my buddy's dad) for the rest of my life. However, in 96 I was having fun, the AF offered me more money, and the airlines weren't hiring that much...so all of a sudden I find myself as a mid-level AF guy going WAY past what I thought I'd ever do on active duty. I have no regrets, however...I enjoyed my career and am proud of the service I have provided. Now I am at a great company having fun, learning the ropes at a new business.

Another option (that I missed...) that is often mentioned on the boards is the ANG/Reserve slot. You go to UPT, work full time a few years and get seasoned, then hopefully start your airline career. The problem is slots are hard to come by, and once in a unit...well...the scenery doesn't change much. If you are in a C130 unit, you will most likely fly C130s your entire career (not a bad deal, and I know there are exceptions...) Another Auburn buddy did ANG duty on weekends instead of ROTC during the week (like me) and we ended up in the same UPT class (at different bases). While I flew OV-10s, then F-15s in AK, Germany, and FL, he flew F-16s in Alabama. He built equity in a house and became part of the community....I traveled the globe with family in tow seeing new and exciting places. Which do you want? Again...there are no wrong answers. He got hired by Delta only about 18 months before I was available to the airlines, but had the airlines been hiring in the mid 90s he could have probably gotten hired 3-5 years ahead of me.

So...the million dollar question is....."which guy do I want to be?" The good news is there are no wrong answers. Only you can be positive what is best for you. Have fun whatever you choose and be thankful you live in a great country where we have so many options.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Thanks .. I think I do get what you are saying. I think I will stay away from the military and let the guys who 100% want that experience have it instead of me. I appreciate all of the help you have all given me!

 

[YODA]

PilotOnTheRise,

You seem very sincere, I also commend you on your ability to keep a positive attitude after some of the negative remarks you got in return for just simply asking a question. Given, some of the people probably did not like your rather passive attitude toward becoming a military pilot but it also did not warrant some of the hostility you got.

Semper Fi

 

[BeerNear]

See it through mil eyes

YODA,

What if I posted:

"Thanks to everyone who responded and answered my questions regarding civilian and airline flying. Now that I know that Southwest is an option to me, I need to be talked into it. What are some of the pros/cons of airline flying/life VS. military flying/life. I will be heading to civilian life, after mil separation, next year and thus need to make a decision pretty soon as whether to accept a Southwest job, etc. Anyone in this current boat or who has been through it ... advice!?"

"Actually, I somewhat do have a desire to fly for Southwest, but also I have a desire to stay in the military. That is the problem. Im half and half and need something to be said that will make me chose one over the other. If I were to go to Southwest, I would love it ... as far as getting to fly, it would not be something I would wash out of or get terminated for on probation. Its hard to explain the feeling I have ..."

If I posted this on the major interviews board, I would get blasted by current airline pilots. In addition, Southwest guys or gals would have my rearend. I'm sure I wouldn't be a popular guy in Dallas, especially after passing interviews. You would think I would have done my homework by then. It makes me wonder what PilotOnTheRise actually said during the mil interview. I can see it now, "Actually sir, I'm not fully committed towards the military and am still thinking of staying on the civ route." I guess I am naive to think that you should be honest during interviews and committed to work for someone as gracious as to give you an interview and take up their time.

Matbe I'm wrong,

Take care and fly safe,

 

[CCDiscoB]

Excellent post BeerNear! I was going to respond but whatever I would have written certainly would not have been as good as that.

 

[pilotyip]

AOCS

I don't think AOCS (Aviation Officer Candidate School) is around anymore, but AOCS helped you make up your mind about the military and if you did not have a burning desire to fly in the Navy, the USMC DI's would help you quickly make up your mind you wanted nothing to do with being in the military. I can not imagine trying to go through it with only a half hearted desire.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

YODA-

I appreciate that. I guess some of the people in here didn't realize what I was asking. Maybe "need to be talked into it" wasn't the correct phrase. However, I think I realize that military flying isn't what I want to do.

BeerNeer

If you were/are a military pilot and were thinking of going civilian and wanted to know what the good and bad was at a certain airline, say SouthWest, because you thought that may be an airline you want to fly for and you asked some current pilots for that airline what they saw in it, what was good, what was bad, I highly doubt they would blast you ... that was all I was doing here. I guess I worded it wrong.
Anyways ... I meant no wrong doing here by my question and hope you and any others don't hold it against me!

 

[Michael Knight]

Pilotontherise,

Don't apologize for being honest and asking some serious questions about your future. I can guarantee you that everyone that joins the military does not do so without some reservations. I can also guarantee that not all pilots that leave the military go without reservation, even those offered jobs with Southwest.

There have been things I have pursued and later made an about face because it wasn't right for me. Still, when I joined the military I did not have reservations about serving but I knew many guys that did. Funny thing, my friends that were the most motivated and dedicated for military careers are all out now working in corporate America. Many of the one's that were clearly not 100% sold nor that motivated have changed course and are careerists. I do have my own thesis on why this happens so often but I'll spare you.

What I mean to explain is you really don't know until you try it out. So, without having that opportunity the next best thing is to ask others who have done it... keep asking the questions. With that said, motivation will definately help you achieve any objective... especially completion of military training.

Good luck,
Mike

 

[bssthound]

Pilotontherise,
Let me, too, commend you on your honesty. There's nothing wrong with asking people who've been there/done that.

I know some of the more derogatory posts didn't bother you for I, too, am a Saints fan and am used to dissapointment much worse than a few gruff words on a message board. If you can carry the weight of another dismal season you can certainly find your niche in the aviation world.

Just .02 from another soul in the Drinking City with a Football Problem!

 

[AlbieF15]

Yeah...what Michael Knight says...

I'll ask....how come a bunch of laid back dudes like me who "tolerated" ROTC lasted so long in the AF, while so many of the fired up Nazis ended up washing out of UPT...or barely finishing...and so many ended up getting passed over (especially the non-pilots) or getting out in the mid 90s...? My observation as well...but I have no major theories....MK--what do you think?

 

[RichO]

I'm not sure how you were thinking of getting your commision if you decided to become a mil pilot, but it probably is better you don't fly in the military if your not in it 100%. There is so much BS to put up with and unless your in it 100% you'll illiminate yourself quickly. Don't get me wrong, mil flying is by far the greatest flying you'll ever do. The places you'll go, the things you'll do, it will amaze you... Yeah, there is a lot of boring flying too, but overall I'm glad I chose this path. If you decide you want to REALLY do this, by all means go for it, but you have to put 100% into it to make it through training. It's alot of team work, studying, and well, letting loose a little too on the weekends. But, you know, when Sept 11th happened, it suddenly made apparent what my position in the military was all about. And the chance to be a part of it will far surpase anything I do in the civilian world.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

I appreciate all of the nice comments now coming from some of you guys! I think you understand what I am trying to ask.

Well, lets hope the Saints do good this year. They were fine 2 years ago and I don't know what happened to them last year. I think they will do fine however.

 

[YODA]

PilotOnTheRise, per your previous post, no one should hold this against you! You are learning and that is what flying and most importantly, what life is all about, so hang in there! Obtain a goal and go after it, the only person that can tell you you are a quitter is YOURSELF, so go after what you want. If you feel you have what it takes than give it a shot, find out for yourself, but at least try. You obviously have some urge to become a militatry aviator since you asked the initial question -YODA

 

[BeerNear]

Albie, please translate for a Herc dude

Albie,

I think I missed something. What are you trying to say? ROTC vs Nazis? Tolerating ROTC? I wasn't in ROTC, but was there really that much to tolerate in ROTC? Passed over?

BN

 

[BeerNear]

If you want the real skinny....

PilotOnTheRise,

Here is my best advice. If you are not fully committed, stay away from active duty. Join the Air National Guard or reserves. I wish would have known about this tidbit of info when I graduated from high school. Looking back, I would have enlisted while I was in college and competed for a pilot slot when I graduated. It seems as though the guardsmen had the best of both worlds. They got to fly mil jets and seek a civilian flying job at the same time.

I have finally joined a guard unit but it has been a long strange trip for me. This is the best advice I can give to someone in your situation.

Take care and good luck,

BN

 

[AlbieF15]

BN,

It was late--after a roll call--when I wrote my post. In Saturday morning clear vision...here is what I meant to say.

I thought ROTC was a pain in the @ss. So did several of my buddies. We did our best to tolerate it, but never really enjoyed the BS. Several of that crowd went on to fly fighters and do quite well. One of my crowd is a 2 x below the zone guy....

Others in AFROTC ate it up! They wanted to be involved in every facet...and at age 20 were talking about "their" 20-25 year careers that they knew were going to happen. One of these fine specimen told me I'd never make it through UPT, as I wasn't dedicated enough...of course I ended up in fighters and he washed out, but that is a different story....

Anyway...roll the tape 15 years, and I have found--like MK--that many of the fired up guys have long since gotten out--disillusioned or simply steamrolled by the military. On the other hand, the more laid back guys went on to have (generally speaking) pretty good careers. MK said he had a theory as to why...and I'd love to hear it.

 

[CCDiscoB]

I get what you're saying Albie. I agree, and in fact many "laid back dudes" decided to join the military after college selecting the OTS route. They too have great flying careers. The difference is we still had the desire to fly for the military from before we went to school. I selected my school because it had ROTC. Yes, I too suffered through it, and watched the “over achievers” wash out.

The question is, has the Saint’s fan always wanted to fly or is he just bored now and thinking about a change of scenery. Last fall I was speaking to one of our young, civilian, gate guards when he started asking me about flying. He said, “Yeah man, I thinking about flying for the unit if this doesn’t work out.” I wished him luck. Is flying for the military PilotOnTheRise's fall back plan?

 

[Michael Knight]

Albie,

My theory, for what it is worth:

The 110% gung-ho, oh-rah, there is nothing better than living in this mud hole with my K-bar types get disappointed when they realize the military career is not full of the stuff they dreamed or expected. This leads to disappointment because the reality of a military career does not live up to their lofty expectations. Some of these types do chill out and their expectations are changed.

Meanwhile, others come in thinking this would be a great experience, I can serve my country and see the world. Their expectations are not as high and therefore they fit in much better with the real military. I believe those that find themselves in the middle, the not so crazy gung ho nor the figured I'd join before they drafted me types, do best in today's military.

Anyway, it's just my theory.

I think I worked hard in flight school - but definitely not as hard as others... I was too busy working on my water-skiing form and basketball game, amongst other things.

BTW... I really wanted to be a pro basketball player but I took my second choice as a military pilot. Not everyone can be like Mike . I know other pilots that really wanted to be porn stars... they also settled.

 

[Draginass]

If you're going to be in the military, then you must WANT to be a warrior whose "horse" is an airplane and whose weapon is a bomb, cannon, or missile -- not just an airplane operator. There's plenty of those guys around. Military flying isn't the crap you see on TV or in the movies with that idiot Cruise. It's mostly mundane and deadly serious.

I would advise you to do everyone a favor and steer clear of the military unless you are serious about wanting to be a soldier, not just an airplane pilot.

 

[NavyGuy]

As I continue to beat this dead horse into glue, I have to say YOU do have to WANT "it". Being a military aviator and officer for that matter is not for the faint of heart or those who don't have the desire and commitment.
But I also must say to those who poo-poo this young man on the content of his question is that he hasn't even gone to college yet. This guy is probably still in high school! He has concerns and is curious.
Granted most of the military types on this board have probably wanted to fly since our first airshow attendance at the age of 6 but that pull to be military fliers doesn't apply to everyone at the same time.
I commend PilotontheRise for trying to figure out his course in life. Keep asking the questions, make educated decisions and do what's best for you.

 

[av8instyle]

I'll second that...

I grew up in Iowa, knew nothing about aviation, and took my first airplane ride (a NWA B757) at the fresh age of 18. Ten years later and I am with a Major and fly Vipers for the guard.

Not everyone knows they want to fly at a childhood age. I certainly didn't.