Need some assistance from AF pilots

[lucky2Bflyin]

Hey guys:
I am having some trouble extracting information from my local Air Force recruiter, and was hoping some people could take the time and fill in some of the gaps.

I am 24 years old, civilian flight instructor with about 800 flight hours of flight time. I have a BS in Aeronautical Science from a well-known aviation university. After much thought I have considered pursuing a flight position in the Air Force. This is what I understand so far:

First you must be selected by a selection board. This involves taking an aptitude test, physical, flight physical, and interview. Then your "package" is submitted to the board and they decide if you get a pilot's slot. I understand that if you do not get chosen for a flight spot then you are not obligated to serve in active duty. If selected for a pilot position then you go to OTS (12.5 weeks long) and hopefully pass that. Now this is where the questions start!

Can someone explain in detail what a person can expect next? I have heard all of these terms floatin around UPT, IFF, etc. What is the competition like? What exactly determines which aircraft you will be trained in? I will say right now that if I could choose right now I would love to fly F-15's....not set on that, just a goal. I would hope having 800 hours of flight experience would help...does it?

I would greatly appreciate ANY input...thanks, B

 

[Marc]

Process

B,
You have most of it down except for a couple of details.
You put together a package: all sorts of forms, AFQOT test scores, BAT score, Flight hours, Interview, Physical, etc...
That package is put in front of a board. Those people decide whether or not to award you an OTS/UPT slot.
UPT: Undergraduate Pilto Training = flight school

After OTS, you will probably be on casual status for a couple of months. Then you go to UPT for 52 weeks for Primary training where you fly the T-37 or the T-6 Texan II.
That is when you "track select"; meaning you put what plane you want to fly during the Second phase of flight school: there are 3 routes: Fighter/Bomber (T-38), Transport (T-1) or Helos.
After you finish that Second phase, you have another "track select" where each class is given a list of planes that are available for that class:
T-38 --> F-15C, F-15E, F-16, B-1, B2, B-52
T-1 --> C-141, C-17, KC 10, C-5

The needs of the Air Force and your class ranking will determine what you end up with.
Good luck. You obvioulsy have a bunch of hours already. If you want to fly the F-15 and you haven't flown any acro yet, I would recommend you go up in a Decathlon for a few hours.
Marc

BTW: IFF stands Intro to Fighter Fundamentals, it's part of post flight school training that you get after the T-38 and if you have been selected to fly a fighter (F-16, F-15)

 

[lucky2Bflyin]

Marc- that was exactly what I was looking for. One concept I do not understand so far is this: Obviously my choice aircraft would be fighters, specifically the F-15. What determines if I go train in the T-38 and then whether or not I get the 15/16? I am assuming that I will compete against others in my class, but what is the criteria upon which we are graded? I just want to have a clear idea of what I can expect to compete in you know? Last question: Do you know of any civilians like myself who end up making it to a fighter? I am hoping that my background thus far will prepare me somewhat for UPT and further training?

Thanks, B

 

[Marc]

Fighters

Assuming you are in T-37 training and you are top of your class (or pretty close to top), and you put T-38 as your first choice on your dream sheet, you will probably get it.
Same things, let's assume you are top of your class during yout T-38 training. Let's assume there are 10 people in your class and your class gets the following drop:
2 x F-15C, 1 x F-15E, 3 x F-16, 1 x B-2, 2 x B-52, 1 x FAIP T-38
Then you will probably get your Eagle.
Some of the criteria you are graded one I believe is:
Academics scores (tests)
Check Ride scores
I can't remember the other criteria of the top of my head.
Keep in mind I am not in OTS or UPT. I am a civilian pilot just like you. Just a bunch less hours than you. But I have been doing some research over the past 2 years about getting into the AF.
I don't personaly know of any CFIs that are currently flying fighters.
If you have any other questions, keep send them!

 

[HueyPilot]

Just to add a few things...

There are actually FOUR tracks you can choose from following Phase II (Primary T-37/T-6):

T-1: C-5, C-9, C-17, C-21, C-130, KC-10, KC-135, RC-135, E-3, E-8, T-1 FAIP, T-37/T-6 FAIP

T-38: F-15C, F-15E, F-16, A-10, B-1, B-52, T-38 FAIP, T-37/T-6 FAIP

T-44: C-130, AC-130, MC-130, EC-130, HC-130, C-12

UH-1: UH-1, HH-60, MH-53

T-1/T-38 training is conducted at any of the 3 SUPT bases. T-44 training is done at NAS Corpus Christi, TX. There are actually two squadrons down there, one with the T-44 and another with the TC-12. Both airplanes are similar, but the TC-12 has more power and is a bit larger. Students selected for UH-1 training go to Ft. Rucker, AL, and fly the UH-1H.

I assume you're applying for OTS. If you go to OTS, there are more routes than just the standard SUPT route. You can also be selected to do Primary training with the Navy at Pensacola, flying the T-34C (T-6 will come on line in a few years). From that point, you track select like the other SUPT students. You can also apply for an ENJJPT slot at OTS. ENJJPT is almost a guaranteed fighter slot. It's conducted at Sheppard AFB in Texas, and they only have T-37s and T-38s there. They also train with other NATO student pilots and IPs, so you get an interesting mix of perspective. By the way, ENJJPT stands for Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training.

Marc also mentioned getting C-141s out of T-1s. That is no more. C-141s are going away, and haven't been in class assignment drops for a few years now. Other changes...supposedly they are adding a random B-2 (Stealth Bomber) in the drops, and the rumor is also starting that Predator UAVs will start coming down the pipeline in the near future. Again, the rumor mill also says both the B-2 and the UAV will come from T-38 drops, since ACC (Air Combat Command) owns all of the B-2 assets and most of the UAV assignments.

In Tweets, your class ranking is a mix of checkride scores, daily ride grades, EPQ (Emergency Procedures Quizzes) scores, academic scores, and Flight Commander class ranking (ie, where you sit relative to your classmates attitude/officership-wise). The three biggest scores, from most important to least, are the checkrides, daily ride scores, and Flight Commander's ranking. I'll take a stab and see if I remember the exact breakdown:

Checkrides: 50%; Daily rides: 25%; Flight Commander's ranking: 15%; Academic scores: 10%; EPQ scores: 5%.

EPQs aren't that important grade-wise. However, if you fail enough of them, it can warrant an "88" or "89" ride, that is a checkride to see if you're worthy of keeping in the program. And from what I remember, you need to score an 85% to pass an EPQ...they are typically 20-question multiple choice tests given once a week.

Additional things to keep in mind to remain competitive for a fighter:

You have to pass the FACT test. This is a weight test that is based upon your body mass. The heavier you are, the more weight you have to lift. Only T-38 students have to pass it.

You also have to go to the centerfuge and pass a T-38 'fuge profile. This eliminates a few students, but most seem to make it through.

Then it's off to T-38 Phase III. There are four checkrides: Contact, Formation, Low-level and a Nav check. The Contact is just a basic flying checkride...takeoffs, landings, etc. The Formation check includes 4-ship ops, etc. Low-level is self-descriptory. Nav check is essentially an instrument checkride.

Your T-38 flight will likely consist of several students who want any fighter, and a few that are heckbent on a particular type. Most students get the F-16, simply because that airframe is the most ubiqitous fighter airframe. Here are some typical fighter assignment drops:

F-15C, 2 X F-16C, A-10, B-52

F-15E, 2 X F-16, B-1, B-52

Generally you don't see more than 1 F-15E/A-10 in a drop, because there aren't that many around. And it's rare to see more than one F-15C in a drop too. If you're willing to take a Viper or a Mud Hen, you'll be plenty happy. If you don't care for the 15/16 airframes and really want a Hog (like I did), you will face tougher odds. That's one reason why I didn't go T-38s.

As for your prior experience, it will help some at first, but you really don't have much of a lead, since the Air Force will train you to fly their way. Perhaps the most important thing going for you is if you have an instrument rating and understand basic instrument flying. But civilian flying does nothing to prepare you for flying overhead tactical patterns, formation flying, and low-levels.

To help you feel better, though, one of my good friends in UPT was like you...had about 1,000 hours and was a CFII. He's now a Tweet FAIP with a fighter follow-on, and in a year or so will find out if he will get his Viper. But at this point, he's so tired of flying the Tweet he'll take just about anything.

One final note. I put T-1s as my first choice. Most of us in the T-1 track wanted to be there. But there were a few fighter wannabe's (3 of them) who didn't make the cut to the other side (T-38 track). 2 were bitter. This affected their flying in the T-1, as it seemed they just "gave up" and said "f$*k it". That ultimately screwed them, IMO. One guy got a KC-135 to Kadena (there are worse places...but a tanker isn't the best mission), and the other got a T-1 FAIP with a Tanker follow-on. And since a Tanker follow-on means any tanker AND the E-3/E-8/RC-135, AFPC (Air Force Personnel Center) has translated that to mean those pilots exist to solve their hard-fill assignments (AWACS, J-STARS, etc).

Most C-21/FAIP assignment cycles I see with pilots that have Tanker follow-ons suck...maybe 1-2 actual tankers, and 3-4 AWACS, etc. So to continue with my story, those two guys shot themselves in the foot. They were actually decent pilots...at the very least middle of the class. They could have probably gotten a C-17 or a C-130 if they tried. But like I said, they gave up. The third guy I mentioned just sucked to begin with, and there was no way he was gonna get a T-38. He wound up with an AWACS, and I think graduated dead last in the class (maybe not, but it's hard to imagine he was very far from the bottom of the class).

So the moral to that story is if you don't get your T-38 slot, don't let it break your heart. Despite the rumors, heavy flying (depending on the airframe) isn't all that bad, especially in the C-17/C-130 world. And if you're really wanting to put steel on target, go C-130s and try to get into the AC-130.

 

[airgator]

huey-
They'll actually give out a UAV in a drop? Would you be stuck in it for a while or a follow on type thing?

 

[Yahtzee]

"You want the truth?" "I want answers."

I would hope having 800 hours of flight experience would help...does it?

Lucky,

That depends on you. If you approach SUPT with the right attitude, that time certainly won't hurt....unless your a hopeless catfish...no amount of time can fix that.

SUPT is one year...Given you're not a complete catfish, go into it with the right mindsite and determination and you'll do well. Live UPT one day at a time, always prepared for each flight, sim or test. It's ok to think about what you want to fly, but don't fixate on it.

Like I have said many times before, if you can track select T-38s do it. Going from a fighter to a heavy is possible. Going from a heavy to a fighter, never having flown a 38...well you'd probably have better chances with Anna Kournikova.

A few more things: you can get any variant of a C-130 from T-1s. I've seen everthing from Talon IIs, ACs HCs, to slicks in T-1 assignments drops. There are several Special Ops guys in the T-1 squadron at CBM today.

And IMO, I wouldn't waste your money in a civilian aerobatic airplane unless you are independently weathly. An IFR rating (or experience) will do more for you in SUPT (T-37s, T-1s & yes T-38s) than any other training you could buy. With 800 hours, I'm assuming you have some IFR experience. For me personally, contact (acro) and formation were the easiest and best parts of UPT.

Ask Talondriver (a T-38 Reserve IP at CBm) for his thoughts as he has a lot of experience and inputs. Every IP sees things slight different, but most IPs I know would agree the Guard/Reserve is a better deal than Active Duy if you can work a slot.

You can also check out this old post for more banter : http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=123506#post123506

Best Wishes...

Yahtz

P.S. I looked up Catfish in my old CAFB dictionary and thought you might like to see what it said.

Catfish: n. 1) a bottom feeding student pilot who attempts to suck the SA from his or her IP unknowingly ; 2) the leading cash crop in Mississippi

Man...I thought I would never say this, but here goes: I'm looking forward to getting to Altus. This night shift in the Command Post ain't for pilots.

 

[HoursHore]

Catfish must be a Columbus thing. We just call them SA Sponges cause they suck up all your SA in addition to thier own in an effort to stay alive. Luckily tweets weed most of em out, but the ones we get from Whiting, thats a different story. They're either really good, or really bad.

In addition to the Tweets you can go thru Joint Supt, the only change is you go thru Navy training in the T-34 at NAS Whiting (Pensacola). A much more laid back program than T-37. You don't even have to show up to the squadron when you aren't on the schedule. There is a little culture shock when you come back to the AF. Like I said, students from this program do just as well' on the T-1 side at least, but the also tend to round out the bottom of the class as well. Don't really know why, but can only speculate that the elimination system in Navy Primary isn't as robust as the one in Tweets.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Lucky2Bflyin,

Your flying time will help you in T-37s. That thing fly's like a Piper. So you should do well in Phase II, as long as you study for your tests, both academic and weekly and don't act like a tool in front of your Flt/CC.

Once in T-38's all bets are off. Good luck! Set your goal for the F-15C and don't waiver from it. You'll be glad you did.

 

[fieldw]

marc, what is casual status exactly? Does it mean you dont have to report to your training base yet, or you just arent training yet? I heard that you are allowed to return home for a few weeks before reporting.

 

[HueyPilot]

Probably follow-ons

airgator-

I'd imagine you'd have a follow-on assignment coming out of an intial UAV tour. In the future, the assignment won't be as bad is it is today. Latest rumor holds that they are going to add a CTP program...Companion Trainer Program. Likely airframe candidates include the T-3 or left-over C-12s. Either way, at least the UAV'ers will get some real flying time.

 

[HoursHore]

Just for the record, I have not seen any UAVs in any drop yet. I don't know about the future, but I have seen no evidence supporting that or heard any rumors that they are going to come down in a Drop.
The only way I coould see getting one is failing some initial ACC training after being rated, i.e IFF, BFF or Awacs initial training.

why does the Air Force need rated guys to fly those things anyway?

 

[Toro]

marc, what is casual status exactly? Does it mean you dont have to report to your training base yet, or you just arent training yet? I heard that you are allowed to return home for a few weeks before reporting.

Casual status is when you are assigned to a base prior to UPT; it usually isn't for specific job duties, you just sort of do what they can find to keep you busy. I was at Laughlin on casual for a year and worked in the T-38 scheduling shop part of the time and at the Public Affairs office part of the time. It's not necessarily the base you will be in UPT; there are several guys at Lakenheath who are on casual status (they get to spend a year at Lakenheath as 2LTs, I spent a year in Del Rio - WTFO?). As far as returning home and taking leave, yes you are allowed. In fact, since you're generally not heavily tasked with duties, you can pretty much take as much leave as you have accumulated (and sometimes advance leave) as long as your commander is cool about it.

 

[HueyPilot]

To future casual Lts:

If any of you are planning on going to OTS and don't have your PPL yet, you will likely wind up having to attend IFT. Depending on where you'll attend UPT, you may have to do IFT here at Maxwell. If you do get orders to stay at Maxwell until your UPT class date, do yourself a favor and talk to personnel dudes at OTS and do casual here with the 54th Airlift Flight.

If you don't say anything about it, you'll probably do casual status at Air University (what I did) and that sucks. You'll spend your time making coffee runs for all the non-rated Captains over at SOC and AU while they do their best to make a future pilot feel as small as you possibly can.

OK, not all of them are like that, but there are a significant number of them that I could tell didn't like pilots, and often openly mentioned that pilots don't do sh!t in the Air Force except fly, eat and crew rest.

So, that being said, if you come over to the C-21 flight here, you'll be amongst pilots, get some UPT tips, and we'll probably work you in the scheduling department in between IFT flights. I mentioned to my boss the other day that we need a couple casual Lts and he agreed, since we're about to become undermanned shortly.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

B,

All the above is pretty much correct, especially from Hueypilot and Yahtzee. As a current T-37 IP and from someone who has gotten here the hard way, I would offer the following information..

My hard road to being a Pilot took me to Nav school first out of ROTC, then faced with cutbacks following the so called "peace dividend" after the fall of the Soviet Union (rest in peace our dearest and best adversary), I ended up in my hometown ANG unit for a UPT slot. Now because I like teaching so much, I am a reservist flying T-37s. I am just a glorified CFI, and I my students get paid to be prepared for each lesson, instead of me trying to manage their budgets as well as their training at the local Part 61 FBO.

You are fairly young, but at the same time have quite a bit of flight experience. You should try to open all doors and see who answers. It will probably take you two years from present to get through the active duty cycle and walk across the stage at graduation, then you will be 26 almost 27 years old with a 10 year commitment to the Air Force. I don't know if you plan or want a 20 year career. What I do know, is that in the ANG or Reserve you get to pick your plane before SUPT. You still have a 10 year commitment after UPT, but it is not exclusive to that particular unit nor does it require full time services to honor that commitment. It will probably take 2 to 3 years to find yourself at UPT for a Guard or Reserve unit from this moment, and that is due to timing of fiscal year stuff, when they interview, and when you get a UPT slot. This fiscal year slots are gone and given out, next year's beginning in October are probably already through the first round of interviews, they will probably make a final selection once they get a firm hand on the actual number of slots that particular unit is going to receive. Then those lucky few will have to get the med stuff done, get through IFT (intro flight training=Air Force pays for 50 hours for you to earn a private ticket and if you don't do it in 50 or you pink slip no UPT for you) and get commissioned, so none of them will make it a base before summer of 04. You may ask why you should take a road that may take another year to get you that pair of coveted pilot's wings?

Well, as I said your Reserve commitment is not a full time, so you graduate UPT with about 1000 hours total time, 200 multi-turbine (counting the 800 you already have), and if you are lucky enough to get that F-15/16 unit you start racking up turbine PIC right away. This makes you instantly marketable to the regional airlines assuming you don't get a regional job before you get to UPT (which opens up another good deal, you take mil leave from your job, they keep it for you, and two years later you go back to work at much better seniority and pay). By the time market turns around for the majors (if that is your goal), you'll be maybe 31 to 32 years old and searching for airline employment versus the guaranteed 37 years old that you will be if you take the 10 year commitment to active duty.

Each Guard unit is awarded their UPT slots from the Guard Bureau and has total control as to whom they are awarded. Typically each unit gets two per fiscal year sometimes more depending on needs, one will be awarded in house to somebody already within the unit such as a crew chief enlisted dude or a loadmaster/flight engineer from the enlisted aircrew force in a C-130 or C-141/17/KC-135 unit, and one will come off the street (someone with no military background). The navigators in the 141 and KC-135 units now are getting free extra slots that don't count against these numbers right now because their positions are being eliminated with the C-17 or the KC-135 avionics upgrade called "Pacer Craig" (SP on that program name?). Competition for these off the street slots is pretty stiff, my guard unit went through a stack of almost 100 guys to get to one dude for an off the street slot. What improves your chances for these "off the streeters"? Having prior flying time, already having a degree, (you can go to UPT for the Guard if you have 2 years of college, but you must promise to complete your degree within 7 years of completing flight training-this very rarely happens anymore because people were abusing the system, not getting degrees, getting jobs in the last big hiring market and then quitting the units) and having some local ties to the area. Did you grow up there, do your parents live there, do you currently live and work there, did you attend university there, meet your wife there and plan to settle near her parents etc....?

Reserve units while almost the same as far as flying and pay dates have no control over their slots. Each unit sponsors candidates to a federal selection board that meets at AFRC HQ in Dobbins. Candidates are selected for UPT, then the unit is told whether or not their candidates were selected. Sometimes units come up dry, if the candidates they sponsored were not as competitive as the other candidates. If their candidates are selected, then they get to come back and fly for that unit after UPT.

Would you or should you enlist to improve your chances with an ANG unit? Depends on what you want. Enlisting doesn't hurt your chances of getting an active duty slot. You are not breaking any commitments you had from enlisting because going to be an active duty officer is a higher commitment. Kinda like moving up from the minor leagues to the majors. Enlisting does get you a free version of the GI Bill that you can use to offset costs for additional ratings at part 141 schools (my CFI and my 737 type came courtesy of the GI Bill) if you never get lucky enough to get a UPT slot.

The quickest way for you to an Active Duty slot right now is through Officer Training School (OTS). However OTS is a backfill method of producing officers. Whatever doesn't come from the Academy and ROTC is what OTS is called on to produce each year. Sometimes it is very competitive and sometimes it is not. When times are competitive, the next way to active duty may be through the accelerated ROTC program. To do that however, you will have to go back to school and get another degree or a masters degree that you can complete in two years. I've been out of touch with my old ROTC detachment for a while so I am not as up on things as I used to be, go talk to the ROTC guys at your school, they are much less likely to feed you BS because they are not trying to fill quotas like the NCOs at the recruiting stations or find the Academy Admissions Liaison Officer for your area (they recruit for all officer sources not just the academy)

I don't know where you are, but here are some fighter units and the planes they fly off the top of my head:

New Orleans F-15 ANG and A-10 AFRES
Barksdale, LA A-10s AFRES
South Carolina F-16s ANG
Atlantic City F-16s ANG
Fresno CA F-16s ANG
Fort Worth F-16s ANG
Houston F-16s ANG
Jacksonville F-15s may have converted to 16s ANG
Willow Grove PA A-10s ANG
Otis, MA ANG
Baltimore A-10s ANG

Here are the ANG and AFRES websites list of units index:
http://www.ang.af.mil/units/angsites.asp
http://www.afrc.af.mil/Units.htm

Each ANG unit has their own individual recruiters, and the AFRES dudes work through a centralized system, you call the toll free number and get connected to the recruiter that services your region.

As one who has been in both reserve components, I would recommend the Air Guard over the Air Force Reserve if I had to choose between the two.