Need some assistance from AF pilots

[lucky2Bflyin]

Hey guys:
I am having some trouble extracting information from my local Air Force recruiter, and was hoping some people could take the time and fill in some of the gaps.

I am 24 years old, civilian flight instructor with about 800 flight hours of flight time. I have a BS in Aeronautical Science from a well-known aviation university. After much thought I have considered pursuing a flight position in the Air Force. This is what I understand so far:

First you must be selected by a selection board. This involves taking an aptitude test, physical, flight physical, and interview. Then your "package" is submitted to the board and they decide if you get a pilot's slot. I understand that if you do not get chosen for a flight spot then you are not obligated to serve in active duty. If selected for a pilot position then you go to OTS (12.5 weeks long) and hopefully pass that. Now this is where the questions start!

Can someone explain in detail what a person can expect next? I have heard all of these terms floatin around UPT, IFF, etc. What is the competition like? What exactly determines which aircraft you will be trained in? I will say right now that if I could choose right now I would love to fly F-15's....not set on that, just a goal. I would hope having 800 hours of flight experience would help...does it?

I would greatly appreciate ANY input...thanks, B

 

[Marc]

Process

B,
You have most of it down except for a couple of details.
You put together a package: all sorts of forms, AFQOT test scores, BAT score, Flight hours, Interview, Physical, etc...
That package is put in front of a board. Those people decide whether or not to award you an OTS/UPT slot.
UPT: Undergraduate Pilto Training = flight school

After OTS, you will probably be on casual status for a couple of months. Then you go to UPT for 52 weeks for Primary training where you fly the T-37 or the T-6 Texan II.
That is when you "track select"; meaning you put what plane you want to fly during the Second phase of flight school: there are 3 routes: Fighter/Bomber (T-38), Transport (T-1) or Helos.
After you finish that Second phase, you have another "track select" where each class is given a list of planes that are available for that class:
T-38 --> F-15C, F-15E, F-16, B-1, B2, B-52
T-1 --> C-141, C-17, KC 10, C-5

The needs of the Air Force and your class ranking will determine what you end up with.
Good luck. You obvioulsy have a bunch of hours already. If you want to fly the F-15 and you haven't flown any acro yet, I would recommend you go up in a Decathlon for a few hours.
Marc

BTW: IFF stands Intro to Fighter Fundamentals, it's part of post flight school training that you get after the T-38 and if you have been selected to fly a fighter (F-16, F-15)

 

[lucky2Bflyin]

Marc- that was exactly what I was looking for. One concept I do not understand so far is this: Obviously my choice aircraft would be fighters, specifically the F-15. What determines if I go train in the T-38 and then whether or not I get the 15/16? I am assuming that I will compete against others in my class, but what is the criteria upon which we are graded? I just want to have a clear idea of what I can expect to compete in you know? Last question: Do you know of any civilians like myself who end up making it to a fighter? I am hoping that my background thus far will prepare me somewhat for UPT and further training?

Thanks, B

 

[Marc]

Fighters

Assuming you are in T-37 training and you are top of your class (or pretty close to top), and you put T-38 as your first choice on your dream sheet, you will probably get it.
Same things, let's assume you are top of your class during yout T-38 training. Let's assume there are 10 people in your class and your class gets the following drop:
2 x F-15C, 1 x F-15E, 3 x F-16, 1 x B-2, 2 x B-52, 1 x FAIP T-38
Then you will probably get your Eagle.
Some of the criteria you are graded one I believe is:
Academics scores (tests)
Check Ride scores
I can't remember the other criteria of the top of my head.
Keep in mind I am not in OTS or UPT. I am a civilian pilot just like you. Just a bunch less hours than you. But I have been doing some research over the past 2 years about getting into the AF.
I don't personaly know of any CFIs that are currently flying fighters.
If you have any other questions, keep send them!

 

[HueyPilot]

Just to add a few things...

There are actually FOUR tracks you can choose from following Phase II (Primary T-37/T-6):

T-1: C-5, C-9, C-17, C-21, C-130, KC-10, KC-135, RC-135, E-3, E-8, T-1 FAIP, T-37/T-6 FAIP

T-38: F-15C, F-15E, F-16, A-10, B-1, B-52, T-38 FAIP, T-37/T-6 FAIP

T-44: C-130, AC-130, MC-130, EC-130, HC-130, C-12

UH-1: UH-1, HH-60, MH-53

T-1/T-38 training is conducted at any of the 3 SUPT bases. T-44 training is done at NAS Corpus Christi, TX. There are actually two squadrons down there, one with the T-44 and another with the TC-12. Both airplanes are similar, but the TC-12 has more power and is a bit larger. Students selected for UH-1 training go to Ft. Rucker, AL, and fly the UH-1H.

I assume you're applying for OTS. If you go to OTS, there are more routes than just the standard SUPT route. You can also be selected to do Primary training with the Navy at Pensacola, flying the T-34C (T-6 will come on line in a few years). From that point, you track select like the other SUPT students. You can also apply for an ENJJPT slot at OTS. ENJJPT is almost a guaranteed fighter slot. It's conducted at Sheppard AFB in Texas, and they only have T-37s and T-38s there. They also train with other NATO student pilots and IPs, so you get an interesting mix of perspective. By the way, ENJJPT stands for Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training.

Marc also mentioned getting C-141s out of T-1s. That is no more. C-141s are going away, and haven't been in class assignment drops for a few years now. Other changes...supposedly they are adding a random B-2 (Stealth Bomber) in the drops, and the rumor is also starting that Predator UAVs will start coming down the pipeline in the near future. Again, the rumor mill also says both the B-2 and the UAV will come from T-38 drops, since ACC (Air Combat Command) owns all of the B-2 assets and most of the UAV assignments.

In Tweets, your class ranking is a mix of checkride scores, daily ride grades, EPQ (Emergency Procedures Quizzes) scores, academic scores, and Flight Commander class ranking (ie, where you sit relative to your classmates attitude/officership-wise). The three biggest scores, from most important to least, are the checkrides, daily ride scores, and Flight Commander's ranking. I'll take a stab and see if I remember the exact breakdown:

Checkrides: 50%; Daily rides: 25%; Flight Commander's ranking: 15%; Academic scores: 10%; EPQ scores: 5%.

EPQs aren't that important grade-wise. However, if you fail enough of them, it can warrant an "88" or "89" ride, that is a checkride to see if you're worthy of keeping in the program. And from what I remember, you need to score an 85% to pass an EPQ...they are typically 20-question multiple choice tests given once a week.

Additional things to keep in mind to remain competitive for a fighter:

You have to pass the FACT test. This is a weight test that is based upon your body mass. The heavier you are, the more weight you have to lift. Only T-38 students have to pass it.

You also have to go to the centerfuge and pass a T-38 'fuge profile. This eliminates a few students, but most seem to make it through.

Then it's off to T-38 Phase III. There are four checkrides: Contact, Formation, Low-level and a Nav check. The Contact is just a basic flying checkride...takeoffs, landings, etc. The Formation check includes 4-ship ops, etc. Low-level is self-descriptory. Nav check is essentially an instrument checkride.

Your T-38 flight will likely consist of several students who want any fighter, and a few that are heckbent on a particular type. Most students get the F-16, simply because that airframe is the most ubiqitous fighter airframe. Here are some typical fighter assignment drops:

F-15C, 2 X F-16C, A-10, B-52

F-15E, 2 X F-16, B-1, B-52

Generally you don't see more than 1 F-15E/A-10 in a drop, because there aren't that many around. And it's rare to see more than one F-15C in a drop too. If you're willing to take a Viper or a Mud Hen, you'll be plenty happy. If you don't care for the 15/16 airframes and really want a Hog (like I did), you will face tougher odds. That's one reason why I didn't go T-38s.

As for your prior experience, it will help some at first, but you really don't have much of a lead, since the Air Force will train you to fly their way. Perhaps the most important thing going for you is if you have an instrument rating and understand basic instrument flying. But civilian flying does nothing to prepare you for flying overhead tactical patterns, formation flying, and low-levels.

To help you feel better, though, one of my good friends in UPT was like you...had about 1,000 hours and was a CFII. He's now a Tweet FAIP with a fighter follow-on, and in a year or so will find out if he will get his Viper. But at this point, he's so tired of flying the Tweet he'll take just about anything.

One final note. I put T-1s as my first choice. Most of us in the T-1 track wanted to be there. But there were a few fighter wannabe's (3 of them) who didn't make the cut to the other side (T-38 track). 2 were bitter. This affected their flying in the T-1, as it seemed they just "gave up" and said "f$*k it". That ultimately screwed them, IMO. One guy got a KC-135 to Kadena (there are worse places...but a tanker isn't the best mission), and the other got a T-1 FAIP with a Tanker follow-on. And since a Tanker follow-on means any tanker AND the E-3/E-8/RC-135, AFPC (Air Force Personnel Center) has translated that to mean those pilots exist to solve their hard-fill assignments (AWACS, J-STARS, etc).

Most C-21/FAIP assignment cycles I see with pilots that have Tanker follow-ons suck...maybe 1-2 actual tankers, and 3-4 AWACS, etc. So to continue with my story, those two guys shot themselves in the foot. They were actually decent pilots...at the very least middle of the class. They could have probably gotten a C-17 or a C-130 if they tried. But like I said, they gave up. The third guy I mentioned just sucked to begin with, and there was no way he was gonna get a T-38. He wound up with an AWACS, and I think graduated dead last in the class (maybe not, but it's hard to imagine he was very far from the bottom of the class).

So the moral to that story is if you don't get your T-38 slot, don't let it break your heart. Despite the rumors, heavy flying (depending on the airframe) isn't all that bad, especially in the C-17/C-130 world. And if you're really wanting to put steel on target, go C-130s and try to get into the AC-130.

 

[airgator]

huey-
They'll actually give out a UAV in a drop? Would you be stuck in it for a while or a follow on type thing?

 

[Yahtzee]

"You want the truth?" "I want answers."

I would hope having 800 hours of flight experience would help...does it?

Lucky,

That depends on you. If you approach SUPT with the right attitude, that time certainly won't hurt....unless your a hopeless catfish...no amount of time can fix that.

SUPT is one year...Given you're not a complete catfish, go into it with the right mindsite and determination and you'll do well. Live UPT one day at a time, always prepared for each flight, sim or test. It's ok to think about what you want to fly, but don't fixate on it.

Like I have said many times before, if you can track select T-38s do it. Going from a fighter to a heavy is possible. Going from a heavy to a fighter, never having flown a 38...well you'd probably have better chances with Anna Kournikova.

A few more things: you can get any variant of a C-130 from T-1s. I've seen everthing from Talon IIs, ACs HCs, to slicks in T-1 assignments drops. There are several Special Ops guys in the T-1 squadron at CBM today.

And IMO, I wouldn't waste your money in a civilian aerobatic airplane unless you are independently weathly. An IFR rating (or experience) will do more for you in SUPT (T-37s, T-1s & yes T-38s) than any other training you could buy. With 800 hours, I'm assuming you have some IFR experience. For me personally, contact (acro) and formation were the easiest and best parts of UPT.

Ask Talondriver (a T-38 Reserve IP at CBm) for his thoughts as he has a lot of experience and inputs. Every IP sees things slight different, but most IPs I know would agree the Guard/Reserve is a better deal than Active Duy if you can work a slot.

You can also check out this old post for more banter : http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=123506#post123506

Best Wishes...

Yahtz

P.S. I looked up Catfish in my old CAFB dictionary and thought you might like to see what it said.

Catfish: n. 1) a bottom feeding student pilot who attempts to suck the SA from his or her IP unknowingly ; 2) the leading cash crop in Mississippi

Man...I thought I would never say this, but here goes: I'm looking forward to getting to Altus. This night shift in the Command Post ain't for pilots.

 

[HoursHore]

Catfish must be a Columbus thing. We just call them SA Sponges cause they suck up all your SA in addition to thier own in an effort to stay alive. Luckily tweets weed most of em out, but the ones we get from Whiting, thats a different story. They're either really good, or really bad.

In addition to the Tweets you can go thru Joint Supt, the only change is you go thru Navy training in the T-34 at NAS Whiting (Pensacola). A much more laid back program than T-37. You don't even have to show up to the squadron when you aren't on the schedule. There is a little culture shock when you come back to the AF. Like I said, students from this program do just as well' on the T-1 side at least, but the also tend to round out the bottom of the class as well. Don't really know why, but can only speculate that the elimination system in Navy Primary isn't as robust as the one in Tweets.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Lucky2Bflyin,

Your flying time will help you in T-37s. That thing fly's like a Piper. So you should do well in Phase II, as long as you study for your tests, both academic and weekly and don't act like a tool in front of your Flt/CC.

Once in T-38's all bets are off. Good luck! Set your goal for the F-15C and don't waiver from it. You'll be glad you did.

 

[fieldw]

marc, what is casual status exactly? Does it mean you dont have to report to your training base yet, or you just arent training yet? I heard that you are allowed to return home for a few weeks before reporting.

 

[HueyPilot]

Probably follow-ons

airgator-

I'd imagine you'd have a follow-on assignment coming out of an intial UAV tour. In the future, the assignment won't be as bad is it is today. Latest rumor holds that they are going to add a CTP program...Companion Trainer Program. Likely airframe candidates include the T-3 or left-over C-12s. Either way, at least the UAV'ers will get some real flying time.

 

[HoursHore]

Just for the record, I have not seen any UAVs in any drop yet. I don't know about the future, but I have seen no evidence supporting that or heard any rumors that they are going to come down in a Drop.
The only way I coould see getting one is failing some initial ACC training after being rated, i.e IFF, BFF or Awacs initial training.

why does the Air Force need rated guys to fly those things anyway?

 

[Toro]

marc, what is casual status exactly? Does it mean you dont have to report to your training base yet, or you just arent training yet? I heard that you are allowed to return home for a few weeks before reporting.

Casual status is when you are assigned to a base prior to UPT; it usually isn't for specific job duties, you just sort of do what they can find to keep you busy. I was at Laughlin on casual for a year and worked in the T-38 scheduling shop part of the time and at the Public Affairs office part of the time. It's not necessarily the base you will be in UPT; there are several guys at Lakenheath who are on casual status (they get to spend a year at Lakenheath as 2LTs, I spent a year in Del Rio - WTFO?). As far as returning home and taking leave, yes you are allowed. In fact, since you're generally not heavily tasked with duties, you can pretty much take as much leave as you have accumulated (and sometimes advance leave) as long as your commander is cool about it.

 

[HueyPilot]

To future casual Lts:

If any of you are planning on going to OTS and don't have your PPL yet, you will likely wind up having to attend IFT. Depending on where you'll attend UPT, you may have to do IFT here at Maxwell. If you do get orders to stay at Maxwell until your UPT class date, do yourself a favor and talk to personnel dudes at OTS and do casual here with the 54th Airlift Flight.

If you don't say anything about it, you'll probably do casual status at Air University (what I did) and that sucks. You'll spend your time making coffee runs for all the non-rated Captains over at SOC and AU while they do their best to make a future pilot feel as small as you possibly can.

OK, not all of them are like that, but there are a significant number of them that I could tell didn't like pilots, and often openly mentioned that pilots don't do sh!t in the Air Force except fly, eat and crew rest.

So, that being said, if you come over to the C-21 flight here, you'll be amongst pilots, get some UPT tips, and we'll probably work you in the scheduling department in between IFT flights. I mentioned to my boss the other day that we need a couple casual Lts and he agreed, since we're about to become undermanned shortly.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

B,

All the above is pretty much correct, especially from Hueypilot and Yahtzee. As a current T-37 IP and from someone who has gotten here the hard way, I would offer the following information..

My hard road to being a Pilot took me to Nav school first out of ROTC, then faced with cutbacks following the so called "peace dividend" after the fall of the Soviet Union (rest in peace our dearest and best adversary), I ended up in my hometown ANG unit for a UPT slot. Now because I like teaching so much, I am a reservist flying T-37s. I am just a glorified CFI, and I my students get paid to be prepared for each lesson, instead of me trying to manage their budgets as well as their training at the local Part 61 FBO.

You are fairly young, but at the same time have quite a bit of flight experience. You should try to open all doors and see who answers. It will probably take you two years from present to get through the active duty cycle and walk across the stage at graduation, then you will be 26 almost 27 years old with a 10 year commitment to the Air Force. I don't know if you plan or want a 20 year career. What I do know, is that in the ANG or Reserve you get to pick your plane before SUPT. You still have a 10 year commitment after UPT, but it is not exclusive to that particular unit nor does it require full time services to honor that commitment. It will probably take 2 to 3 years to find yourself at UPT for a Guard or Reserve unit from this moment, and that is due to timing of fiscal year stuff, when they interview, and when you get a UPT slot. This fiscal year slots are gone and given out, next year's beginning in October are probably already through the first round of interviews, they will probably make a final selection once they get a firm hand on the actual number of slots that particular unit is going to receive. Then those lucky few will have to get the med stuff done, get through IFT (intro flight training=Air Force pays for 50 hours for you to earn a private ticket and if you don't do it in 50 or you pink slip no UPT for you) and get commissioned, so none of them will make it a base before summer of 04. You may ask why you should take a road that may take another year to get you that pair of coveted pilot's wings?

Well, as I said your Reserve commitment is not a full time, so you graduate UPT with about 1000 hours total time, 200 multi-turbine (counting the 800 you already have), and if you are lucky enough to get that F-15/16 unit you start racking up turbine PIC right away. This makes you instantly marketable to the regional airlines assuming you don't get a regional job before you get to UPT (which opens up another good deal, you take mil leave from your job, they keep it for you, and two years later you go back to work at much better seniority and pay). By the time market turns around for the majors (if that is your goal), you'll be maybe 31 to 32 years old and searching for airline employment versus the guaranteed 37 years old that you will be if you take the 10 year commitment to active duty.

Each Guard unit is awarded their UPT slots from the Guard Bureau and has total control as to whom they are awarded. Typically each unit gets two per fiscal year sometimes more depending on needs, one will be awarded in house to somebody already within the unit such as a crew chief enlisted dude or a loadmaster/flight engineer from the enlisted aircrew force in a C-130 or C-141/17/KC-135 unit, and one will come off the street (someone with no military background). The navigators in the 141 and KC-135 units now are getting free extra slots that don't count against these numbers right now because their positions are being eliminated with the C-17 or the KC-135 avionics upgrade called "Pacer Craig" (SP on that program name?). Competition for these off the street slots is pretty stiff, my guard unit went through a stack of almost 100 guys to get to one dude for an off the street slot. What improves your chances for these "off the streeters"? Having prior flying time, already having a degree, (you can go to UPT for the Guard if you have 2 years of college, but you must promise to complete your degree within 7 years of completing flight training-this very rarely happens anymore because people were abusing the system, not getting degrees, getting jobs in the last big hiring market and then quitting the units) and having some local ties to the area. Did you grow up there, do your parents live there, do you currently live and work there, did you attend university there, meet your wife there and plan to settle near her parents etc....?

Reserve units while almost the same as far as flying and pay dates have no control over their slots. Each unit sponsors candidates to a federal selection board that meets at AFRC HQ in Dobbins. Candidates are selected for UPT, then the unit is told whether or not their candidates were selected. Sometimes units come up dry, if the candidates they sponsored were not as competitive as the other candidates. If their candidates are selected, then they get to come back and fly for that unit after UPT.

Would you or should you enlist to improve your chances with an ANG unit? Depends on what you want. Enlisting doesn't hurt your chances of getting an active duty slot. You are not breaking any commitments you had from enlisting because going to be an active duty officer is a higher commitment. Kinda like moving up from the minor leagues to the majors. Enlisting does get you a free version of the GI Bill that you can use to offset costs for additional ratings at part 141 schools (my CFI and my 737 type came courtesy of the GI Bill) if you never get lucky enough to get a UPT slot.

The quickest way for you to an Active Duty slot right now is through Officer Training School (OTS). However OTS is a backfill method of producing officers. Whatever doesn't come from the Academy and ROTC is what OTS is called on to produce each year. Sometimes it is very competitive and sometimes it is not. When times are competitive, the next way to active duty may be through the accelerated ROTC program. To do that however, you will have to go back to school and get another degree or a masters degree that you can complete in two years. I've been out of touch with my old ROTC detachment for a while so I am not as up on things as I used to be, go talk to the ROTC guys at your school, they are much less likely to feed you BS because they are not trying to fill quotas like the NCOs at the recruiting stations or find the Academy Admissions Liaison Officer for your area (they recruit for all officer sources not just the academy)

I don't know where you are, but here are some fighter units and the planes they fly off the top of my head:

New Orleans F-15 ANG and A-10 AFRES
Barksdale, LA A-10s AFRES
South Carolina F-16s ANG
Atlantic City F-16s ANG
Fresno CA F-16s ANG
Fort Worth F-16s ANG
Houston F-16s ANG
Jacksonville F-15s may have converted to 16s ANG
Willow Grove PA A-10s ANG
Otis, MA ANG
Baltimore A-10s ANG

Here are the ANG and AFRES websites list of units index:
http://www.ang.af.mil/units/angsites.asp
http://www.afrc.af.mil/Units.htm

Each ANG unit has their own individual recruiters, and the AFRES dudes work through a centralized system, you call the toll free number and get connected to the recruiter that services your region.

As one who has been in both reserve components, I would recommend the Air Guard over the Air Force Reserve if I had to choose between the two.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Part II

You can screw up and lose your fighter slot from a Guard/Reserve unit. Those who don't finish in the top 50% of the Phase II class (T-37/T-6) get phone calls made to their unit commanders who make the call. Sometimes the answer is send you to 38s, because in the old days we all flew 38s and sometimes a guy from the near bottom would catch on and graduate in the top. Sometimes the answer is no, because they will trade you to a heavy unit and give you what they feel is the best chance of getting wings. Sometimes poor performers in the 38 track are graduated but not recommended for fighters, so they have to find a Guard/Reserve unit that flies big planes. If you go active duty, don't fall into the trap after you get sick of UPT and think what a lot of people say "I'll take a T-1 and run." The 38 program presents its own challenges, but the T-1 while being a Beech business jet is easy to fly, the program is very challenging from a mental planning and mission planning perspective. There are many who will say that the Navigation Phase checkride in T-1s is one of the hardest checkrides they ever took in the Air Force.

I agree with Hueypilot on the C-130 stance. Active duty, Guard or Reserve, the C-130 is a great plane if you don't get a fighter. The only bad assignments on Active Duty IMHO are Japan (too far away) and EC-130s (not really true C-130 scarf and goggle down in the weeds getting dirty flying). If you go to Corpus for Phase III, you just got FAIP immunity (means the air force can't make you be a first assignment IP and teach for the first 3 years of your career in a craphole UPT base which is a bad deal for most single people), a better chance at getting a Gunship or Talon Spec Ops assignment. You can transfer to C-17s later on, because it is the same mission only bigger, or there are too many Guard/Reserve units with C-130s that will take you if you decide not to continue an active duty career after your commitment is finished. You can come back and be a T-37/T-6 or T-1 IP if you desire. It is a good life. I loved every minute of my 2,000 hours in the Herk, and only like my Tweet time in a different way because I get to go upside down, spin and fly formation.

Once you get to UPT, your prior flying experience will help. Flying is flying and nothing changes that. Talking on the radio, shooting an ILS, navigating visually, tracking VOR radials and course intercepts, entering a traffic pattern at a non military field are all the same regardless of whether you are wearing shorts and tennis shoes or flying in a nomex flight suit. Military flying is different only because our ultimate goal is to break things and kill people to support and defend the constitution and save democracy. We demand precision and discipline. Precision because ultimately how precise you fly may determine the difference between nailing the target or having a bunch of Al Jazeera reporters screaming about collateral damage; or getting beans and bullets to good guys on the drop zone instead of having the enemy eating the MREs you just dropped and shooting good guys with our bullets. Discipline to work as part of a team and do the right thing always. A good friend of mine often makes the following statement. "You can't play hockey and learn to skate at the same time. Your feet and balance have to be nearly automatic while your brain keeps track of the puck, thinks about swinging the stick, and all those rules." At the beginning of UPT for most students it is very much like learning two things at once. The T-37 is an easy but demanding plane to fly. It goes 2.5 to 3x faster than what most civilian pilots came from (we cruise everywhere at 200 IAS and fly final at 100-110 IAS), it has a stick and just to make things fun, it doesn't have split differential ailerons like all those GA planes so adverse yaw in turns is a big player. One of the biggest hurdles most students have is making level turns. The biomechanics of turning with a stick cause most people to add premature back pressure as they roll into the turn, then they forget or don't use rudder and boom they just gained 200' plus in a turn in the traffic pattern. The sooner students chairfly, mentally learn their procedures, radio calls, visual pitch settings, and power settings, the better they can learn because I don't have to constantly harp on basics, but can start talking about judgment calls and finesse issues. You know how it goes as a CFI, the difference between the first time you hit the pattern with student versus the ride before solo when they put in cross wind controls without you saying a word, or they look for traffic based on a radio call between tower and another plane versus a traffic advisory issued directly to them.

For the most part, CFIs do really well at UPT as long as they keep and open mind, and don't act like they know everything. Remember how tough it is to instruct since you've done it yourself and listen. I know of 2 CFIs that did not complete the program. One was in my Nav class back in 1988, he said he was just lazy and thought he knew it all, and one just recently got put out in the last class we had. I never flew with this one, but from talking to the other instructors, it sounds like somebody let one slip through the cracks and I would not recommend learning to fly with this individual. Not everything every IP says is completely correct and not every IP teaches the same way. If an IP says something you don't understand ask for clarification. If you think, it is wrong, ask the next IP you fly with, without mentioning the other IP’s name, to explain the concept. If the next IP asks who taught you that, then tell him or her, because sometimes the older more experienced guys have to mentor our younger instructors. Help out your classmates as much as you can without being a know it all, you'll find yourself teaching a lot during study groups, because unless you are that one "catfish" Yahtzee mentions, you will grasp stuff quicker than the students who only have their private tickets. Whenever there is an IP sitting around the flight room not doing anything, get them to explain or teach stuff because that is our duty. We won't pour knowledge into your head, but if you seek us out the cup will run over. UPT can turn a nobody into a pilot and if someone who is already an accomplished pilot comes through the program they usually leave as a much better pilot. Don't brag about your flight time or certificates, sometimes people will figure it out, and sometimes people can't tell you have prior experience.

You are ready, I just hope you get the chance. Keep an open mind and a positive attitude and you will do fine. The more you fly and most importantly the more you keep yourself in a learning mode is the best thing you can do. I recommend reading the AIM on radio communications techniques, I recommend to anyone the Jepps Commercial Instrument Manual as the book that will give you the big picture on flying in the real world. What would I do in your place? Get your Instructor, Instrument Instructor, your Multi Instructor tickets if you have time, fly aerobatics with a stick in a Citabria, get your tail dragger sign off if you don't have it. Go fly gliders if you get the chance. Do some of it if you can't do it all, or do none, you'll still make it! (OK all you other guys reading this post, Lucky has all those ratings, the rest of you keep putting stuff on your tickets and in your mind if you can afford it)

 

[talondriver]

Re: Just to add a few things...

The Formation check includes 4-ship ops, etc. Low-level is self-descriptory. Nav check is essentially an instrument checkride.

Generally you don't see more than 1 F-15E/A-10 in a drop, because there aren't that many around. And it's rare to see more than one F-15C in a drop too.

First, only ENJJPT does the four-ship checkride

Second, there is no common drop. I've seen it all.

My suggestion is...don't game the system. If you want an eagle, you need to go T-38. And, if you get an A-10 or anything other than an eagle, you can still put in for that eagle (or F-22 by then)later on down the road (depending on your MWS manning).

 

[talondriver]

Re: "You want the truth?" "I want answers."

Catfish: n. 1) a bottom feeding student pilot who attempts to suck the SA from his or her IP unknowingly ; 2) the leading cash crop in Mississippi.

Yahtz-

You're missing out on the dual runways ops...

I thought double-wide sales was the leading....oh, you said cash "crop" !

 

[Purple Haze]

Do you know of any civilians like myself who end up making it to a fighter?

There was a guy in my Flight Screening class (back when we had to go fly a C172 at Hondo, TX prior to UPT) who was all civilian. He had long hair and looked generally "unmilitary." He said he was going to fly F15s -- which was kind of funny for a guy in his position (kind of made me think of Mayo in Officer & a Gentleman ). After OTS we went to different UPT bases. I saw him again at survival school and asked what he got ------- F15.

I bumped into him again in '99. He was still flying eagles and had made major below-the-zone the last year USAF did that, and he had a school slot.

Bottom line: Yes it is possible for a civilian like yourself. Follow the advice in the above posts and do not be distracted by anything that happens during UPT -- FOCUS.

 

[rainman_02]

Other changes...supposedly they are adding a random B-2 (Stealth Bomber) in the drops, and the rumor is also starting that Predator UAVs will start coming down the pipeline in the near future. Again, the rumor mill also says both the B-2 and the UAV will come from T-38 drops, since ACC (Air Combat Command) owns all of the B-2 assets and most of the UAV assignments.

There were 2 B-2 assignments in the drop last Friday. No UAVs, but it was heavily joked about during the assignment night festivities.

Currently, as I understand it, bombers are only coming from T-38s. The bomber mission fam part of the T-1 syllabus has been suspended, even though it still shows on our syllabus trackers.

One can apply to the B-2 from any fixed wing aircraft per their current "recruiting" information.

 

[airgator]

? for you IP's:

In a typical T-37 class, how many students does each IP have? Do you instruct different students or stick with the same ones until track select?

 

[HueyPilot]

Bombers from T-1s, etc.

They had just moved the bombers from T-1s to T-38s as I started UPT. And there were lots of rumors of bringing bombers back to T-1s, or at least putting the B-52 in the T-1 drop. So when track select came along, I had a choice to make. I knew I could get a T-38 slot. But my wife didn't like any of the bomber locales, and from the class drops I had been to, the A-10s were few and far between. And I really liked the C-130. So I went T-1s, got a C-21 with a Tactical Airlift follow-on, and I'm having a great time flying a fun airframe, seeing lots of things, and I'll get that Herk one way or another.

In a previous post I had warned about the dangers of "gaming the system". What that means is putting something else ahead of your desired track thinking that you will either get your 2nd or 3rd choice, or that you put something else at the top because you feel you aren't up to the task of working for your goal.

If you want to fly F-15s, then go T-38s. Period.

What I did might be construed as "gaming the system", but that's not it at all. When I went to UPT, I was already a rated Army helicopter pilot, and I had a very open mind on what I wanted to fly....A-10, bombers, or Herks. That being said, my decision was made based on a couple of factors...I knew that I'd be happy flying any of those airframes. I knew that my wife didn't like Abilene TX, Rapid City SD, Minot ND, or Barksdale LA. I knew that statistically speaking, an A-10 would have been hard to come by. It's a matter of class dates aligning. And as luck would have it, we had a guy in my class who really wanted an A-10, and did pretty well, but got an F-16...an airframe I didn't want to fly. I feel, in my heart, that if I had gone T-38s, that would have been me.

Next was the Herk. I love the Herk, I've always wanted to fly one since I grew up near Ft. Bragg/Pope AFB, and loved watching them fly by. Even though it's big, slow and noisy, it's got a cool mission for a "heavy". Low-level. Gunship. Spec Ops. You can do it all.

So, don't confuse my decision-making process with what you should do. If you really, really want an F-15, then by all means go for it. However, be prepared (mentally) to fly anything. That includes an AWACS.

At my drop night, I had put C-21 with a Tac Airlift follow-on first, but had accepted in my head to fly anything, including the infamous AWACS or RJ. I knew I probably wouldn't get the AWACS, I had done pretty good in school, but it wasn't out of the question that I might not get that C-21/TAC assignment and could be flying Fred or a C-17 instead. I was at peace with that.

The only thing I didn't want was the FAIP, because my wife would have killed me being stuck in Del Rio for another 3 years.

Now, I'm NOT trying to convince you to fly anything other than a F-15. But I saw my classmates that were deadset on flying a particular type of airplane, and when they didn't get it, they were very upset.

If you go AD (active-duty), be mentally prepared that you COULD end up flying a KC-135, or something else (even a helicopter). My former casual-status roommate was "F-16 or bust", and told me if he got helos, he'd try to get out of the USAF as soon as he could. I didn't like that attitude. Being a former helo pilot myself, I can tell you that flying helicopters was more fun than flying anything else I've flown (including the Tweet) to date.

My moral....everything has it's own silver lining. KC-135s are good performers, have total glass. KC-10s you get a DC-10 type rating. Herks have a cool airdrop mission. C-17s you get a little bit of the best of both worlds, and a new airplane that's the center of AMC's attention. F-15s you fly the world's premier air superiority fighter. F-16s you get to do a bit of everything. A-10s have a very diverse attack mission and are highly maneuverable and probably the best "stick-n-rudder" airplane in the USAF. Bombers you stay home alot and still get to blow things up.

Bottom line...remember that flying ANYTHING in the USAF is better than flying nothing. Even that AWACS driver has a better job than the Transportation officer who's directing the cleaning of buses everyday.

Also, if you lighten up, and stop stressing about getting "THE" airplane, you'll do better. Those guys who were on pins and needles about getting their favorite airframe...most of them didn't get their choice. The guy who got the F-15C in our class was laid back and didn't care too much what he got. I obviously didn't care a whole lot, and got my top choice. Both of us got DG of our class too. And for both of us....getting DG and getting our top choice was almost a total suprise to both of us.

Good luck and I hope you do well.

 

[HueyPilot]

Not an IP, but I'll try

At Laughlin, each IP carried about 2-3 students as "assigned students". The IP was responsible for caring for the student's grade book, etc.

In Tweets, I flew with my assigned IP about 30% of the time. My assigned IP was known as a "hammer"...she had the shortest temper of all our IPs. Each IP generally will fly with every student in the class at least once. I flew with every IP in my flight, and I flew with a few "guest IPs" as well.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

We cycle thru the students

Gator,

Each IP typically has 2 or 3 students. We are responsible for making sure things are going ok with your training. There are usually 12-15 students in a flight room, and 6-7 permanent assigned IPs including the flight commander.

In the 15 rides prior to solo, we try to only fly each student with a max of 3 Instructors. This is not hard and fast, but a very honest attempt. We also try to fly you 3 to 4 times in a row with the same IP, so that we can see your mistakes, help you work thru them, and offer techniques. Then we pass you on to another IP so that you don't get warped by each individual IP's personal pet peeves.

After solo, you will probably dump one of 3 IPs you've flown with, then pick up someone new for 3 of the next 6 rides that lead you to mid-phase. After mid-phase check, you dump another of those pre-solo IPs and pick up a new one for the next 11 rides (4 of which are solo) until your final contact check.

This rotation will continue for the 7 rides for Instruments, and the 15 rides for formation. Seven Nav rides are usually flown in one weekend cross country with the same IP. If you break, get weather stuck or incomplete somehow, then you may fly some of these rides with another IP or the same one who you tried to go cross country with in the first place.

Your sims are a different animal, because the sim instructors are all contract civilians (mostly retired ex IPs) and you may sim with a dude who flys as a reservist and works sims for a civilian job.

All told there are 68 total jets in the Laughlin/Columbus syllabus, Vance may be a bit different because of the Joint-Navy SUPT stuff; and 3 Basic sims, 3 EP sims, 14 Instrument Sims.

In most every phase, you probably see a 3 or 4 ride string with your assigned IP, and by the end of training, you will have flown with all 6-7 of the permanent IPs in the flight room and 4 of the guest help IPs.

Study, chairfly, and good luck!

HueyPilot,

The drops and assigment process have changed slightly. FAIPs and C-21 assignments no longer receive follow-on assignments. So the T-1 grads are in play for any big jet. I am not sure if a 38 FAIP, or if a 37/6 FAIP from the 38 track gets a generic fighter follow-on or bomber follow-on or if they are just praying the whole time as a FAIP to get what they want.

Right now, all bombers are coming from the 38 track. There may still be a few T-1 FAIPs with bomber follow-ons from the time when B-52/B-1s came from the T-1 track. If there are any left, then they get to go through that mini-38 course for a few contact rides and the formation low levels at 360KT GS.

The rumors keep flying about returning some, none or all of the bombers to the T-1 and then those nasty remote controlled things keep rearing their ugly heads also. Anything they do in this department is usually done to reduce the 38 student load and preserve the life of the jet, or reduce student load to ease the burden while AETC transitions to the 38C models.

 

[AlbieF15]

Twt driver and Huey pilot,

Some of the very best gouge and philosophy I've seen doled out wannabes in a long time....keep up the good work.

As for the "gotta fly the XXX" types, one of my table mates said he wanted "an F16 or nothin'!". Well...he got one of his first two choices....he was gone pre-solo in tweets. I've also seen more than a few ex-Helo guys do VERY well, including a classmate of mine who got an Eagle out of UPT and later flew the U-2 and the F16 as well.

Wannabes...if you haven't figured it out yet...WINGs are the goal in UPT...the rest takes care of itself.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

HueyPilot,

Dude, I agree with Albie, you dispense great advice. Send me a PM with your DLF Flt and class number, I gotta know who "hammer" is or was. I got suspicions, but I gotta know.

When you get out of Herks, you should consider coming back to the T-6/T-37 world. CBM and Vance are a bit nicer than DLF, and students would benefit greatly from your wisdom.

 

[talondriver]

Back to "gaming the system".
If you put down what you want and get it...bueno!
If you put down what you want and don't get it...at least you tried.
If you try and game the system and someone else ends up with the jet you could of had...you will always be one of those that grabs the nearest guy and says "I could of had a '38 or I could of had the C-17". Too bad and no one wants to hear it.
Don't make your life (and others) miserable. Put yourself in a position to select (fly good), select, and hope for the best.

 

[talondriver]

I just want to clarify...the above post was no slam on anyone posting here. There is some awesome intel you potential SUPT students can put in your clue bag...guard or active.

 

[Yahtzee]

Yahtz-

You're missing out on the dual runways ops...

TalonDriver,

How's that dual runway situation going by the way?

I'm waiting around my Altus class working nights up in the Command Post....AMC's a different world from AETC....not bad not good...just different. I'm in a good squadron here, but the C-17 has too much vis right now, and the 43rd is hard to beat as for as the people go. Maybe oneday, I'll be able to come back.

Hope things are going well for you at CBM. I plan to stop by and check out the "Mullett" (the new home of the 43rd T-1 guys) on my way to Altus. Maybe we can meet up for some grub.

Yahtz

P.S. How's Pat B. doing? I heard AFPC canxed his assignment to Randolph. Sorry to hear that. Pat's a good dude and was even liked by the T-1 folks.