Need some assistance from AF pilots

[lucky2Bflyin]

Hey guys:
I am having some trouble extracting information from my local Air Force recruiter, and was hoping some people could take the time and fill in some of the gaps.

I am 24 years old, civilian flight instructor with about 800 flight hours of flight time. I have a BS in Aeronautical Science from a well-known aviation university. After much thought I have considered pursuing a flight position in the Air Force. This is what I understand so far:

First you must be selected by a selection board. This involves taking an aptitude test, physical, flight physical, and interview. Then your "package" is submitted to the board and they decide if you get a pilot's slot. I understand that if you do not get chosen for a flight spot then you are not obligated to serve in active duty. If selected for a pilot position then you go to OTS (12.5 weeks long) and hopefully pass that. Now this is where the questions start!

Can someone explain in detail what a person can expect next? I have heard all of these terms floatin around UPT, IFF, etc. What is the competition like? What exactly determines which aircraft you will be trained in? I will say right now that if I could choose right now I would love to fly F-15's....not set on that, just a goal. I would hope having 800 hours of flight experience would help...does it?

I would greatly appreciate ANY input...thanks, B

 

[Marc]

Process

B,
You have most of it down except for a couple of details.
You put together a package: all sorts of forms, AFQOT test scores, BAT score, Flight hours, Interview, Physical, etc...
That package is put in front of a board. Those people decide whether or not to award you an OTS/UPT slot.
UPT: Undergraduate Pilto Training = flight school

After OTS, you will probably be on casual status for a couple of months. Then you go to UPT for 52 weeks for Primary training where you fly the T-37 or the T-6 Texan II.
That is when you "track select"; meaning you put what plane you want to fly during the Second phase of flight school: there are 3 routes: Fighter/Bomber (T-38), Transport (T-1) or Helos.
After you finish that Second phase, you have another "track select" where each class is given a list of planes that are available for that class:
T-38 --> F-15C, F-15E, F-16, B-1, B2, B-52
T-1 --> C-141, C-17, KC 10, C-5

The needs of the Air Force and your class ranking will determine what you end up with.
Good luck. You obvioulsy have a bunch of hours already. If you want to fly the F-15 and you haven't flown any acro yet, I would recommend you go up in a Decathlon for a few hours.
Marc

BTW: IFF stands Intro to Fighter Fundamentals, it's part of post flight school training that you get after the T-38 and if you have been selected to fly a fighter (F-16, F-15)

 

[lucky2Bflyin]

Marc- that was exactly what I was looking for. One concept I do not understand so far is this: Obviously my choice aircraft would be fighters, specifically the F-15. What determines if I go train in the T-38 and then whether or not I get the 15/16? I am assuming that I will compete against others in my class, but what is the criteria upon which we are graded? I just want to have a clear idea of what I can expect to compete in you know? Last question: Do you know of any civilians like myself who end up making it to a fighter? I am hoping that my background thus far will prepare me somewhat for UPT and further training?

Thanks, B

 

[Marc]

Fighters

Assuming you are in T-37 training and you are top of your class (or pretty close to top), and you put T-38 as your first choice on your dream sheet, you will probably get it.
Same things, let's assume you are top of your class during yout T-38 training. Let's assume there are 10 people in your class and your class gets the following drop:
2 x F-15C, 1 x F-15E, 3 x F-16, 1 x B-2, 2 x B-52, 1 x FAIP T-38
Then you will probably get your Eagle.
Some of the criteria you are graded one I believe is:
Academics scores (tests)
Check Ride scores
I can't remember the other criteria of the top of my head.
Keep in mind I am not in OTS or UPT. I am a civilian pilot just like you. Just a bunch less hours than you. But I have been doing some research over the past 2 years about getting into the AF.
I don't personaly know of any CFIs that are currently flying fighters.
If you have any other questions, keep send them!

 

[HueyPilot]

Just to add a few things...

There are actually FOUR tracks you can choose from following Phase II (Primary T-37/T-6):

T-1: C-5, C-9, C-17, C-21, C-130, KC-10, KC-135, RC-135, E-3, E-8, T-1 FAIP, T-37/T-6 FAIP

T-38: F-15C, F-15E, F-16, A-10, B-1, B-52, T-38 FAIP, T-37/T-6 FAIP

T-44: C-130, AC-130, MC-130, EC-130, HC-130, C-12

UH-1: UH-1, HH-60, MH-53

T-1/T-38 training is conducted at any of the 3 SUPT bases. T-44 training is done at NAS Corpus Christi, TX. There are actually two squadrons down there, one with the T-44 and another with the TC-12. Both airplanes are similar, but the TC-12 has more power and is a bit larger. Students selected for UH-1 training go to Ft. Rucker, AL, and fly the UH-1H.

I assume you're applying for OTS. If you go to OTS, there are more routes than just the standard SUPT route. You can also be selected to do Primary training with the Navy at Pensacola, flying the T-34C (T-6 will come on line in a few years). From that point, you track select like the other SUPT students. You can also apply for an ENJJPT slot at OTS. ENJJPT is almost a guaranteed fighter slot. It's conducted at Sheppard AFB in Texas, and they only have T-37s and T-38s there. They also train with other NATO student pilots and IPs, so you get an interesting mix of perspective. By the way, ENJJPT stands for Euro-NATO Joint Jet Pilot Training.

Marc also mentioned getting C-141s out of T-1s. That is no more. C-141s are going away, and haven't been in class assignment drops for a few years now. Other changes...supposedly they are adding a random B-2 (Stealth Bomber) in the drops, and the rumor is also starting that Predator UAVs will start coming down the pipeline in the near future. Again, the rumor mill also says both the B-2 and the UAV will come from T-38 drops, since ACC (Air Combat Command) owns all of the B-2 assets and most of the UAV assignments.

In Tweets, your class ranking is a mix of checkride scores, daily ride grades, EPQ (Emergency Procedures Quizzes) scores, academic scores, and Flight Commander class ranking (ie, where you sit relative to your classmates attitude/officership-wise). The three biggest scores, from most important to least, are the checkrides, daily ride scores, and Flight Commander's ranking. I'll take a stab and see if I remember the exact breakdown:

Checkrides: 50%; Daily rides: 25%; Flight Commander's ranking: 15%; Academic scores: 10%; EPQ scores: 5%.

EPQs aren't that important grade-wise. However, if you fail enough of them, it can warrant an "88" or "89" ride, that is a checkride to see if you're worthy of keeping in the program. And from what I remember, you need to score an 85% to pass an EPQ...they are typically 20-question multiple choice tests given once a week.

Additional things to keep in mind to remain competitive for a fighter:

You have to pass the FACT test. This is a weight test that is based upon your body mass. The heavier you are, the more weight you have to lift. Only T-38 students have to pass it.

You also have to go to the centerfuge and pass a T-38 'fuge profile. This eliminates a few students, but most seem to make it through.

Then it's off to T-38 Phase III. There are four checkrides: Contact, Formation, Low-level and a Nav check. The Contact is just a basic flying checkride...takeoffs, landings, etc. The Formation check includes 4-ship ops, etc. Low-level is self-descriptory. Nav check is essentially an instrument checkride.

Your T-38 flight will likely consist of several students who want any fighter, and a few that are heckbent on a particular type. Most students get the F-16, simply because that airframe is the most ubiqitous fighter airframe. Here are some typical fighter assignment drops:

F-15C, 2 X F-16C, A-10, B-52

F-15E, 2 X F-16, B-1, B-52

Generally you don't see more than 1 F-15E/A-10 in a drop, because there aren't that many around. And it's rare to see more than one F-15C in a drop too. If you're willing to take a Viper or a Mud Hen, you'll be plenty happy. If you don't care for the 15/16 airframes and really want a Hog (like I did), you will face tougher odds. That's one reason why I didn't go T-38s.

As for your prior experience, it will help some at first, but you really don't have much of a lead, since the Air Force will train you to fly their way. Perhaps the most important thing going for you is if you have an instrument rating and understand basic instrument flying. But civilian flying does nothing to prepare you for flying overhead tactical patterns, formation flying, and low-levels.

To help you feel better, though, one of my good friends in UPT was like you...had about 1,000 hours and was a CFII. He's now a Tweet FAIP with a fighter follow-on, and in a year or so will find out if he will get his Viper. But at this point, he's so tired of flying the Tweet he'll take just about anything.

One final note. I put T-1s as my first choice. Most of us in the T-1 track wanted to be there. But there were a few fighter wannabe's (3 of them) who didn't make the cut to the other side (T-38 track). 2 were bitter. This affected their flying in the T-1, as it seemed they just "gave up" and said "f$*k it". That ultimately screwed them, IMO. One guy got a KC-135 to Kadena (there are worse places...but a tanker isn't the best mission), and the other got a T-1 FAIP with a Tanker follow-on. And since a Tanker follow-on means any tanker AND the E-3/E-8/RC-135, AFPC (Air Force Personnel Center) has translated that to mean those pilots exist to solve their hard-fill assignments (AWACS, J-STARS, etc).

Most C-21/FAIP assignment cycles I see with pilots that have Tanker follow-ons suck...maybe 1-2 actual tankers, and 3-4 AWACS, etc. So to continue with my story, those two guys shot themselves in the foot. They were actually decent pilots...at the very least middle of the class. They could have probably gotten a C-17 or a C-130 if they tried. But like I said, they gave up. The third guy I mentioned just sucked to begin with, and there was no way he was gonna get a T-38. He wound up with an AWACS, and I think graduated dead last in the class (maybe not, but it's hard to imagine he was very far from the bottom of the class).

So the moral to that story is if you don't get your T-38 slot, don't let it break your heart. Despite the rumors, heavy flying (depending on the airframe) isn't all that bad, especially in the C-17/C-130 world. And if you're really wanting to put steel on target, go C-130s and try to get into the AC-130.

 

[airgator]

huey-
They'll actually give out a UAV in a drop? Would you be stuck in it for a while or a follow on type thing?

 

[Yahtzee]

"You want the truth?" "I want answers."

I would hope having 800 hours of flight experience would help...does it?

Lucky,

That depends on you. If you approach SUPT with the right attitude, that time certainly won't hurt....unless your a hopeless catfish...no amount of time can fix that.

SUPT is one year...Given you're not a complete catfish, go into it with the right mindsite and determination and you'll do well. Live UPT one day at a time, always prepared for each flight, sim or test. It's ok to think about what you want to fly, but don't fixate on it.

Like I have said many times before, if you can track select T-38s do it. Going from a fighter to a heavy is possible. Going from a heavy to a fighter, never having flown a 38...well you'd probably have better chances with Anna Kournikova.

A few more things: you can get any variant of a C-130 from T-1s. I've seen everthing from Talon IIs, ACs HCs, to slicks in T-1 assignments drops. There are several Special Ops guys in the T-1 squadron at CBM today.

And IMO, I wouldn't waste your money in a civilian aerobatic airplane unless you are independently weathly. An IFR rating (or experience) will do more for you in SUPT (T-37s, T-1s & yes T-38s) than any other training you could buy. With 800 hours, I'm assuming you have some IFR experience. For me personally, contact (acro) and formation were the easiest and best parts of UPT.

Ask Talondriver (a T-38 Reserve IP at CBm) for his thoughts as he has a lot of experience and inputs. Every IP sees things slight different, but most IPs I know would agree the Guard/Reserve is a better deal than Active Duy if you can work a slot.

You can also check out this old post for more banter : http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=123506#post123506

Best Wishes...

Yahtz

P.S. I looked up Catfish in my old CAFB dictionary and thought you might like to see what it said.

Catfish: n. 1) a bottom feeding student pilot who attempts to suck the SA from his or her IP unknowingly ; 2) the leading cash crop in Mississippi

Man...I thought I would never say this, but here goes: I'm looking forward to getting to Altus. This night shift in the Command Post ain't for pilots.

 

[HoursHore]

Catfish must be a Columbus thing. We just call them SA Sponges cause they suck up all your SA in addition to thier own in an effort to stay alive. Luckily tweets weed most of em out, but the ones we get from Whiting, thats a different story. They're either really good, or really bad.

In addition to the Tweets you can go thru Joint Supt, the only change is you go thru Navy training in the T-34 at NAS Whiting (Pensacola). A much more laid back program than T-37. You don't even have to show up to the squadron when you aren't on the schedule. There is a little culture shock when you come back to the AF. Like I said, students from this program do just as well' on the T-1 side at least, but the also tend to round out the bottom of the class as well. Don't really know why, but can only speculate that the elimination system in Navy Primary isn't as robust as the one in Tweets.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Lucky2Bflyin,

Your flying time will help you in T-37s. That thing fly's like a Piper. So you should do well in Phase II, as long as you study for your tests, both academic and weekly and don't act like a tool in front of your Flt/CC.

Once in T-38's all bets are off. Good luck! Set your goal for the F-15C and don't waiver from it. You'll be glad you did.

 

[fieldw]

marc, what is casual status exactly? Does it mean you dont have to report to your training base yet, or you just arent training yet? I heard that you are allowed to return home for a few weeks before reporting.