Need help with aircraft comparisons please!

[swamprat]

Thanks in advance for all your input. We currently operate a King Air 350 averaging 175 hours annually. About 80% of the flying is about 1000 nm to Mexico with the remainder of the flying about 300 nm. Due to the slow speed, winter winds and the favorable buyers market for airplanes the boss is thinking it's jet time. He is hot on the Citation Ultra but I have reservations about baggage capacity. We routinely carry 4-6 people with lots of bags. The best airplane for him would probably be a CJ3 but his budget is only about 3 million. That could probably get him into a CJ2 but he's concerned about losing some cabin space and seats. He has no interest in Lears of any shape or size. I've been told the Ultra is a real jet as far as Citations are concerned. Any suggestions???? Thanks guys!!

 

[ksu_aviator]

You might start here, if you haven't already:

http://www.jetbrokers.com/jetmu.html

 

[swamprat]

Opps.... Forgot to mention we fly single pilot.

 

[NCherches]

Send me your email in a PM and ill send you an awesome comparison I put together for light citations. I also have good info on actual operating costs, etc.

Just reading your post I would say to get a Citation II or even the Bravo (better pilot features). You can get one for 2-3mil and it has the pretty much the same cabin as the CJ's. All can be flown single pilot - the Bravo requires an FAA Waiver but its really a non-event.

Both the II & Bravo will hold 4 people and nearly full fuel and have decent baggage space. While the Bravo/II have smaller aft baggage space than the CJ's they do have the Emer Exit up front so you can LOAD up the galley with bags if needed. I can take 7 guys w/golf and overnight bags in my Bravo and still fly about 3 hours but they can't use the honey-bucket.

Honestly, from the 'back seat' the Citation II, Bravo, Ultra, Encore and CJ2/3's are all essentially the same....

I don't know a lot about the Ultra bur the Bravo is one great airplane... About a mil more than the Citation II but its got so many nice upgrades for ya - Glass, Better Interior features, better fuel burn, trailing link gear, etc. There is a reason the 550 airframe has lasted so long...

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Make sure you look at II's with the Branson modifications.

 

[TxPilot0878]

For baggage and performance you can't beat a Falcon 20! Yes I am a little prejudice...but you can pick up a low time TFE-731 "F" Model Falcon for 3.5 Million and they are tough, great performance, great baggage capacity and well proven in Mexico and Central America!

PM if you have any questions!

 

[pilot772]

Not an official comparison but here goes


Currently flying an ultra single pilot. Doing a trip this week taking 8 pax, 8 sets of golf clubs, and 8 overnight bags. Assuming each pax at 200 lbs, each golf bag at 50lbs, and each overnight bag at 50 lbs I can put 4200 lbs of gas on and be right under ramp weight. That would give us about a two hour range with reserves assuming no alternate. As some one said depending on the sizes of the golf bags the lav may be unuseable.( I should mention our aircraft has a two person divan in place of one seat)

Hope that helps

 

[BoilerUP]

A Falcon 20 will have DOCs at least 100% higher than a KA350 and 75% higher than an Ultra...

 

[TxPilot0878]

A Falcon 20 will have DOCs at least 100% higher than a KA350 and 75% higher than an Ultra...

Cabin space, lots of baggage, fuel burn...5.5+ hour airplane on 9100(avg 2400 1st hour, 1800 2nd, 1650 3rd, etc...) pounds of gas at FL410 at .81. Just a consideration.

If turboprops and kingairs are your thing then yes the fuel burn and avg. maintenence is somewhat lower!

BoilerUP which charts are you referring to...on a new,leased, or used aircraft?

And GE or TFE?

 

[BoilerUP]

A Falcon 20 is MUCH more airplane than an Ultra, no doubt...but the OP wasn't asking about midsize airplanes, he was asking about a longer-range replacement for a KA350 and a Falcon 20 is a world apart in size & operating cost to a 350!

Conklin deDecker (via www.jetsearch.com) shows the Ultra operating at $1874.05/hr and a 20F operating at $3265.97/hr.

EDIT: knowing nothing about Falcons I just searched for a straight 20F; a evidently 20F-5 has DOCs of $2655.50/hr and 20F-5B of $2576.72/hr. So you'd only be looking at 37.5% more DOCs in the case of a 20F-5B...for a 30+ year old vs. a 15 year old airframe. Of course its a larger, faster, more capable airframe...but well beyond a KA350.

 

[swamprat]

I wish he were in the market for the Falcon......great airplanes, but unfortunately it will definately be a Citation of some sort. Just trying to figure out the best option for him. He's ultimately got to decide weather extra seats and cabin space in the ultra or encore is more important than the baggage capacity of the CJ models. Thanks!!!

 

[bizjet800]

I wish he were in the market for the Falcon......great airplanes, but unfortunately it will definately be a Citation of some sort. Just trying to figure out the best option for him. He's ultimately got to decide weather extra seats and cabin space in the ultra or encore is more important than the baggage capacity of the CJ models. Thanks!!!

Once he gets used to a larger cabin, he'll wonder how he got along with out it. FWIW, the Lear 40/45 have a ton on external baggage and great range. We took one across the pond (with stops of course) with six pax, no problem! I know you said single pilot, just my . $02.

 

[TxPilot0878]

I was just looking at the amount to be spent...BEST OF LUCK!!!!!

 

[NCherches]

Swamp - http://www.omnijet.com/doc/ has a good comparison of Direct Operating Costs to give you a feel... Fairly accurate however all numbers are low as they do not include salaries, hangar, etc. Add $1000 / hour for most light jets for a more realistic DOC #.

 

[NCherches]

...also take him to an actual citation and let him see if that cabin will work for him. The CJs/550's are small in comparison to his 350. That might change his mind...

 

[guido411]

Opps.... Forgot to mention we fly single pilot.

You know this isn't really an obstacle; there are plenty of pilots on the street willing to do the job for a fair price. Heck, go nuts and hire 2 pilots and actually be able to schedule a vacation!

 

[BoilerUP]

Swamp - http://www.omnijet.com/doc/ has a good comparison of Direct Operating Costs to give you a feel... Fairly accurate however all numbers are low as they do not include salaries, hangar, etc. Add $1000 / hour for most light jets for a more realistic DOC #.

Salaries, hangar, etc. are fixed costs...not DOCs.

 

[NCherches]

I know... guess I worded it wrong. I have seen so many people think they can operate a CJ for under 2000/month and that simply doesn't happen unless you fly more than 400 hrs a year.

 

[swamprat]

Thanks for all the info guys...Yes I wish I didn't fly single pilot and I wish the bosses budget was more but it will be nice to have two levers instead of 6 again.

 

[NCherches]

...Dude, single pilot rocks! Minus its nice to have a wing-man to take care of the fat ones