Navajo Drivers......

[TurboS7]

You got it. Trying to fly that tight of approach and hand-pumping at the same time would be quite the challange. With the engine's windmilling you have enough hydraulic pressure to lower the gear, then feather. Flaps are electric.

 

[OtterFO]

The exception that proves.....

Here is the exception that proves the rule about ditching straight ahead.

I just started with a company in Barrow, AK. We have Navajo's, and in ground school we had a similar discussion. The upshot is, when taking off on either runway (6-24) at BRW and you lose engines, turn south. Your chances of surviving in the water up here is ZERO. You are better off in a less than stable condition and landing/crashing/cartwheeling on the tundra. This in an entirely unique situation.

 

[avbug]

You're better off in almost any circumstance to get the airplane onto the land, instead of in the water. Hence the instruction from several posters to Make a turn if it will get one close to the shore, or onto land.

Water just complicates things a whole bunch. The unique circumstances of each incident must be taken into consideration.

 

[bobbysamd]

Educated(?) guess

I've never flown a Navajo, nor have I flown in more than eight years, but I wanna try it.

I would use the ABCs of emergencies, as modified for this situation. Of course, the ABCs, as taught to ME by one of my CFI students, are the following:

A = Airspeed
B = Best place to land
C = Carburetor Heat

Obviously no carb heat. I can't remember if Navajos have injected engines; in that case, alternate air. But it doesn't matter in this instance.

I'd realize my predicament, set up minimum sink airspeed as Avbug stated, and fly the airplane. I'd see what's ahead, maneuver as little as possible, and choose the best place to land. I would secure the engines and shut down the electrics and try to set the airplane down as gently as possible, gear up, even with land. I would not try radical turns because I would sacrifice what little lift I have.

I would not attempt the classic turn back to the runway turn in that airplane or, for that matter, even a light, light wing-loaded single.

I suspect this won't be the SimCom answer, but it's mine.

 

[okflyr]

I went thru the SIMCOM Navajo training back in Jan. of 2001 and the instructor put myself and the other student thru the same senario. His point was to show us that even with two failed engines at 800 feet you could return to and land on the runway.
However I agree with others who said that in a Sim you are prepared for the failure and the pressures of real world flying aren't there. I would pick the best suitable place straight ahead and take my chances.

The best lesson I took from this demo was don't feather both props because you do need atleast one to power the hydraulics to lower the gear.

By the way was the instructor in question Howard Cox?

 

[bobbysamd]

SimCon Answer

That answer sure runs counter to everything I ever learned and ever taught. I don't have a Flight Training Handbook at hand, but I can see in my mind everything it says about not attempting a 180 back to the runway.

 

[maverick_fp00]

Okay, here is what he was tought:

After all of his training was done him and his sim partner were able to just take off and go have fun, like buzzing houses and stuff or just whatever; so he wasn't really expecting an engine failure, both engines at that. Anyway, when he was at 800' AGL the instructor pulled both engines. He was showed that if you put the gear down immediately, feather immediately and enter a 45 degree bank in a little nose down attitude (don't remember what speed he was supposed to be at, but I'll find out from him) and turn all the way around to the runway, you could land with no problem. Although, the instructor said it won't work for 700', it's just simply too low.

If you have a crosswind, you always turn into the wind to decrease your turning radius.

Of course, there is no RIGHT answer, but I was surprised to hear what the instructor had tought him the plane could actually do.

Well, I think that's it. If anybody has any questions I'm sure he could help you with anything you come up with.

 

[DC9stick]

There's two things on this thread that I don't understand.
1) Why is everyone worried about getting the gear down, the airplane will glide better and farther with it up and in most cases when pilots try to keep equipment damage to a minimum (returning to the airport for example) they end up with dead people. Just land with it up! It is imperative the gear be up if landing in water!
2) You fly like you train, If this instructor is training pilots that this turn is possible sooner or later one of these pilots will experience this or a similar situation and try it, unsucessfully.
Does this instructors employer know he is doing this?

 

[Timebuilder]

I don't have a link to post, but if you look back to this past summer in the preliminary accident reports, you will find a Navajo accident at the Reading Regional Airport, with the location given as Bern Township, PA. After departing 36 and experiencing some kind of failure (smoke reported from one engine) he turned left to return to the field. He passed the end of 13 (where I would have put it, with one engine running) and made a big hole in someone's back yard. Some witnesses reported a roll, and some witness reports seemed contradictory. None of the information indicates why he would have lost control, as there were several places to belly it in nearby, and nothing indicates why an empty Navajo, cleaned up and flying at blue line, couldn't make it back to the runway on one engine. If you fly a Navajo, you'll wonder what went wrong.

Would I try a turn back? In a sim, sure. If I had the failure described above, I'd feather and head for the beach at 78 kts., gear up.

 

[surplus1]

Interesting. While not a Navajo pilot, I'm a member of the..... don't turn back, don't lower the gear, keep flying 'till it hits the softest spot you can see in front of the airplane crowd.

It matters not if you feather, lowering the gear is the least of your problems. Why bother? Better to spend what little time you have trying to restart, but don't stop flying while you're trying. Kill the electrics pre impact. On the way down, tighten the harness and belts as much as you can. If possible, get something open so that you can exit when it stops (even if you have to put it in the water). Attempts at the spectacular most often result in spectacular headlines in the obituary column.

Question to the maker: Out of curiosity, what is this instructors flying background and how many times has he successfully completed the task he advocates in a real airplane? Of any type.

Sims are great training tools, but I doubt there exists a level D sim for that type aircraft. The light twin sims that I've seen don't even come close to duplicating the true flight characteristics of the real thing. Am I outdated on the technology of Navajo simulators? The one's I've seen were much more of a training device than a simulator.

I think someone once said something like: There are bold pilots and there are old pilots, but there are no old, bold, pilots.

Fly safe and keep the shiny side up.

 

[woody]

I think that going back for the runway at 800 AGL is a mistake! The sim may do it but most of the Navajos that I've seen are not in the pristine condition that the sim emulates. The scenarios that cause this are usually two things: 1. fuel contamination or 2. incorrect fuel configuratution. with that in mind be aware of the given scenario, always prebrief yourself on a failure such as that mentally before departure. (always have a plan!) Next adhere to procedure and then start improvising within reason. My personal preferance is: Beach, trees, rocks, water in that order. Water is never a good option!!! Someone is going to get hurt everytime and may not get out of the airplane. Remember broken people cost more then broken airplanes! If you turn back for the runway at 800 AGL your concern is the airplane not yourself or the passengers.
My 2 cents Woody