National Day Off.

[AKMD80GUY]

I'm not sure what the fine would be but if we got all 60,000 ALPA, APA and SWAPA to take a day off, that would send a clear message with all of us going in Section 6. I would rather pay a $1,000 fine to give management, the flying public and the media a big wake up call than to ALPA-PAC to have some union rep. play slap and tickle with some crooks on the hill who only want to line their own pocket.

If management can change the rules on us and the government wont let us do anything legaly to protect ourselves, what is to stop us from doing something like this. If F/A's can use CHAOS to get their point across, why can't, or why shouldn't we do it but on a national scale.

 

[brainhurts]

I like the way you think.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Let me know how much support you get for this

 

[Mamma]

I guess one of the MD guys took your advice and called in sick today. Off I go for some 4th of July west coast fun! Ain't reserve the best!

 

[SBD]

Skybus pilots didn't think this was a good idea.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

That's a great idea. I mean, it's pure genius to continue to piss off the paying customers who make it possible to have a job in the first place.

What the hell is wrong with you guys?

 

[Captain Overs]

Where was this idea before you were in section 6? Oh I see, you only want support NOW that YOU'RE going through it.

 

[buckeyes95]

I've been saying this for years. Too bad it would never happen. I don't think ALPA is capable of organizing such a thing. But it would be a beautiful thing. the erosion of our careers would end the minute everyone walked.

 

[vance]

I've got a better idea

Take a yr off and let SWAPA work. Better yet, make it 10! Just do us a favor and call GK before you do it! Thanks

 

[AA717driver]

What the hell is wrong with you guys?

Oh, I don't know, maybe we're just tired of being F'ed over by both management AND "our" union.

What we're doing sure isn't working. TC

 

[Ty Webb]

That's a great idea. I mean, it's pure genius to continue to piss off the paying customers who make it possible to have a job in the first place.

What the hell is wrong with you guys?

What is wrong with you, Chief? One of those, "I'm just happy to have a job" morons?

Airfares are lower now than they were 25 years ago, and that's before adjusting for inflation. A large chunk of that came out of your paycheck.

If we have to have more people on Greyhound and less people clogging up the temrinals for a $69. fare, so be it.

 

[pilotyip]

That right jungle jet the paying customer has nothing to do with a pilot's job. They all have unlimited funds and none will change their travel plans because fares go up.

 

[AKMD80GUY]

"That's a great idea. I mean, it's pure genius to continue to piss off the paying customers who make it possible to have a job in the first place."

This has nothing to do with pissing off the paying passengers. Fact is part of my pay cut was because people are to cheap to pay what an airline ticket is worth. I don't feel bad for the passengers and here's why.

1) Southwest has set the price for a ticket and it is low enough to undercut the competition but high enough to make a profit. That works for them.

2) Everyone else wants to match that but instead of following there business model, management wants the low CASM but all of the service.
Note to management, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

3) Management decides to get their money from labor thru BK or arbitration and farm out as much of their operation as possible.

To all the people that want to bash this, fine. But you have to admit that in the case of pissed off customers, you get what you pay for.

The quest for the $50 transcon ticket is here but all the perks are expected to come with it. Note to passengers, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The fact is boys and girls, we let this happen. We are the types to fix problems and keep the operation going when everything around us falling apart. When management understaffs us (NWA), fails to have plan in place when the weather goes bad (UAL, JetBlue, AA), or has the operation go completely sideways because the cheap contract labor and continuous poor decisions have caused 1/3'd of your frequent flyers to go elsewhere (Alaska) we fix it.

Until the powers that be get hit where it counts, we are all going to continue the slide to the bottom. Note to pilots, We can have our cake and eat it too. We just have to fight for it.

Rant over. Have to go to work.

 

[pilotyip]

I have a great idea, lets go back to regulation, make in 1976 again. We could get rid of about 50% of the pilots flying today and serve only the rich people, gov't employees and the business travelers. For those who keep their jobs the salaries would be fantastic, screw those who go to the street.

 

[wms]

That's a great idea. I mean, it's pure genius to continue to piss off the paying customers who make it possible to have a job in the first place.

What the hell is wrong with you guys?

Unfortunately, the customer is always the most effective pawn in labor issues (and not just in aviation). The customers get mad and go somewhere else; the company loses some money, hopefully realizes the impact and starts taking care of the employees who take care of the customer, and the customers come back. Mgmt understands revenue and the revenue comes from the customer, which is why change doesn't take place in negotiations until the customer is affected.

The best thing the customer can do is be aware of where there are labor issues and go somewhere else until things are resolved, or they can just buy the cheapest seat and be caught in the middle.

 

[enigma]

I'm not sure what the fine would be but if we got all 60,000 ALPA, APA and SWAPA to take a day off, that would send a clear message with all of us going in Section 6. I would rather pay a $1,000 fine to give management, the flying public and the media a big wake up call than to ALPA-PAC to have some union rep. play slap and tickle with some crooks on the hill who only want to line their own pocket.

If management can change the rules on us and the government wont let us do anything legaly to protect ourselves, what is to stop us from doing something like this. If F/A's can use CHAOS to get their point across, why can't, or why shouldn't we do it but on a national scale.

An SOS (suspension of service) will only work when the vast majority of line pilots demand that action. Until then, any SOS call will accomplish nothing more than getting a few pilots fired.

A SOS would require weeks, if not months, of planning and promotion in order to build an successful turnout. Such a time span would allow the industry more than adequate time to call in the Governmental dogs (the Bush/Clinton/Bush justice Dept) and stop it. Therefore, I believe that an SOS must be promted by something so heinous that every pilot will just KNOW in his or her heart that the time has come. That event could be anything from the TSA giving us all the finger wave, to terrorism that could have obviously been prevented.

Until then, I doubt that the average pilot would support an impromtu SOS.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I'm not sure what the fine would be but if we got all 60,000 ALPA, APA and SWAPA to take a day off, that would send a clear message with all of us going in Section 6.

One of the major problems is you've got 60,000 independant contractors looking out for me.

SWAPA? I don't really see them doing too much demonstrations...

I would rather pay a $1,000 fine to give management, the flying public and the media a big wake up call than to ALPA-PAC to have some union rep. play slap and tickle with some crooks on the hill who only want to line their own pocket.

I think you'd pay more than that... as you know from reading Flying the Line, ALPA has determined that an SOS is unworkable.

It is too bad that you think the way you do.... it creates inefficeinces in ALPA. Cause until you believe that your money is more useful in ALPA-PAC than "SOS Fines" we will continue to work against ourselves...

As you also know the APA and PATCO have pissed off the public, industry and gov't with thier illegal job actions. There is no sympathy for illegal strikes. To quote Yamamoto "We've waken a sleeping Giant". if we illegally struck....

If management can change the rules on us and the government wont let us do anything legaly to protect ourselves, what is to stop us from doing something like this. If F/A's can use CHAOS to get their point across, why can't, or why shouldn't we do it but on a national scale.

Because you can't even get pilots to an ALPA meeting and you want them to put it all on the line. An SOS isn't a 2x4 across the Giants head to get his attention... an SOS is an all out gamble on your career. Take it or leave it depending on the results..

Pilot groups are getting ready to open up negotiations to get concessions back. With management rewarding themselves with a job poorly done, they have shown labor their is some pie to share. Now why would pilots conduct an SOS when there is pie?

I've been saying this for years. Too bad it would never happen. I don't think ALPA is capable of organizing such a thing. But it would be a beautiful thing. the erosion of our careers would end the minute everyone walked.

You are right...it won't happen... so why ponder it? It is not workable. Why not find out what is workable, forget this silly distracting nonsense and effect positive change??? After all it is your career....

 

[Gorilla]

Pilotyip, inform all of us please, using your vast store of knowledge, what is our job worth? $50K? $10K? Fly for Free? What will management's response be as our salary is lowered, after lining their pockets with PUP bonuses, and padding their retirement accounts?

Secret answer: They will lower fares so as to undercut the competition. And the cycle will repeat, forever, as the joke fares place downward pressure on our wages.

I will choke the life out of the next idiot I encounter who thinks their life will be complete if only they can fire up that DC-9 and fly worshipful passengers from Long Beach to Wichita. Salary? It doesn't matter, he simply wants to "live the dream." blech.

 

[Rerouted]

Sad, but it's this type of lack of solidarity that has put the collective pilot's group where it is. Start acting collectively and you'd be suprised how much leverage you have. Management types read these pages and anyone can see the type of in fighting there is. In the end, the guys driving the big Benz's walk away with huge bonuses, and you guys arguing that taking a stand is bad continue making less than the last generation of pilots did (adjusted for inflation)...but working more hours for it. Unfortunately, you also drag everyone else down with you. A little foresight won't kill anyone....maybe you should think about it a little harder.

 

[FlyinGuy]

This is all well and good in theory, but there is one question that everyone has to answer..."Would you sacrifice your job for someone at a different carrier?" I do not believe that most of us would.

 

[pilotyip]

For Gorilla, where have I said you should lower your wages? The market and individual self-interest will dictate what wages should be. It is basic economics, if you raise the price of commodity, less people will purchase that commodity. With less people purchasing there is not as much demand for that commodity, therefore there will be fewer, but better paid pilots. That is what we had under Regulation. The market is reacting to a shortage of entry level pilots and the pay increases have already started; look at Pinnacle they now pay during training and provide hotel rooms, this is something they did not do before. Pressure on entry-level employers will increase, as it becomes no longer possible to redefine competitive hiring minimums any lower. It is small start, but all changes start as small steps. We raised our entry-level pay from $22K in 1999 to $36K in 2004. It works. BTW As flyin guy said, “Who wants to be first to sacrifice his job for the benefit of someone else?”

 

[Jungle_Jet]

"That's a great idea. I mean, it's pure genius to continue to piss off the paying customers who make it possible to have a job in the first place."

This has nothing to do with pissing off the paying passengers. Fact is part of my pay cut was because people are to cheap to pay what an airline ticket is worth. I don't feel bad for the passengers and here's why.

1) Southwest has set the price for a ticket and it is low enough to undercut the competition but high enough to make a profit. That works for them.

2) Everyone else wants to match that but instead of following there business model, management wants the low CASM but all of the service.
Note to management, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

3) Management decides to get their money from labor thru BK or arbitration and farm out as much of their operation as possible.

To all the people that want to bash this, fine. But you have to admit that in the case of pissed off customers, you get what you pay for.

The quest for the $50 transcon ticket is here but all the perks are expected to come with it. Note to passengers, you can't have your cake and eat it too.

The fact is boys and girls, we let this happen. We are the types to fix problems and keep the operation going when everything around us falling apart. When management understaffs us (NWA), fails to have plan in place when the weather goes bad (UAL, JetBlue, AA), or has the operation go completely sideways because the cheap contract labor and continuous poor decisions have caused 1/3'd of your frequent flyers to go elsewhere (Alaska) we fix it.

Until the powers that be get hit where it counts, we are all going to continue the slide to the bottom. Note to pilots, We can have our cake and eat it too. We just have to fight for it.

Rant over. Have to go to work.

Brilliant analysis. Now it's time to put down your copy of Communist Manifesto and get back to work.

"Fact is part of my pay cut was because people are to cheap to pay what an airline ticket is worth"

So, who decides what a ticket is worth? You do, I do, Karl Marx does? Last time I checked, basic free market economics dictate that the consumer (remember him?) decides what something is worth.

Newsflash guys, this isn't 1972.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Brilliant analysis. Now it's time to put down your copy of Communist Manifesto and get back to work.

"Fact is part of my pay cut was because people are to cheap to pay what an airline ticket is worth"

So, who decides what a ticket is worth? You do, I do, Karl Marx does? Last time I checked, basic free market economics dictate that the consumer (remember him?) decides what something is worth.

Newsflash guys, this isn't 1972.

Correct analysis in that getting angry at the passengers for paying market prices for an airline ticket is futile......

Quite interesting..... pilots are mostly and quite often....typical Right Wing Republican captalist.... but when the free market forces start messing with thier identity as The Golden Boys of Air Line Pilots they get quite upset....

These RALPs (Repub. Air Line Pilots) call for an SOS and the reply is....."oh so you want to be like European Labor." The RALPs respsond "hell no, we are not socialist.....!! We are free market capitalist!! We are red blooded Americans!!"

The fact is if you want to have a successful and productive career as an Air Line Pilot you are going to have to "game the free market system" The way we do that is thru unions and CBA's. Call it whatever you want, but if you want to be a Air Line Pilot you've got to be a unionist, a collective member and an effective member....

The captalist mentality of the 'Law of the Jungle' and 'Up Yours I got Mine' does not work in labor.

If you want to see what happens when 60,000 union members act like indepedent contractors, then just look in the mirror.... it is all there....

The sooner we start functioning collectively and legally (not an SOS....) the better off we will all be....

“Who wants to be first to sacrifice his job for the benefit of someone else?”

Everyone wants someone else to fall on his sword....

 

[SWA GUY]

It's those DAMN autobrakes!!!!!!

 

[Jungle_Jet]

Correct analysis in that getting angry at the passengers for paying market prices for an airline ticket is futile......

Quite interesting..... pilots are mostly and quite often....typical Right Wing Republican captalist.... but when the free market forces start messing with thier identity as The Golden Boys of Air Line Pilots they get quite upset....

These RALPs (Repub. Air Line Pilots) call for an SOS and the reply is....."oh so you want to be like European Labor." The RALPs respsond "hell no, we are not socialist.....!! We are free market capitalist!! We are red blooded Americans!!"

The fact is if you want to have a successful and productive career as an Air Line Pilot you are going to have to "game the free market system" The way we do that is thru unions and CBA's. Call it whatever you want, but if you want to be a Air Line Pilot you've got to be a unionist, a collective member and an effective member....

The captalist mentality of the 'Law of the Jungle' and 'Up Yours I got Mine' does not work in labor.

If you want to see what happens when 60,000 union members act like indepedent contractors, then just look in the mirror.... it is all there....

The sooner we start functioning collectively and legally (not an SOS....) the better off we will all be....




Everyone wants someone else to fall on his sword....

Ahh... Finally a solution. ALPA should come in and save the day.

After all, they've been nothing but a spectator observing this free fall for the past 30 years.

We determine our own pay by willingly and knowing accepting the job when we know in advance what the pay is.

Fact is, if it wasn't for ALPA and their blind insistence on seniority over everything else, we could leave a carrier when they decide to screw us and shop our skills on the free market like everyone else does.

Thanks to ALPA, we are forced to remain with our carriers regardless of how shabby the treatment is.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Ahh... Finally a solution. ALPA should come in and save the day.

Well it is not filet mignon but it sure beats spam.

After all, they've been nothing but a spectator observing this free fall for the past 30 years.

What would you have them do?

We determine our own pay by willingly and knowing accepting the job when we know in advance what the pay is.

I am not so sure many know that. We accept the job knowing it is better than our current condition and that is all that matters at the time...

Fact is, if it wasn't for ALPA and their blind insistence on seniority over everything else, we could leave a carrier when they decide to screw us and shop our skills on the free market like everyone else does.

The senority issue has yet to be solved. What do you offer?

Thanks to ALPA, we are forced to remain with our carriers regardless of how shabby the treatment is.

Not sure that is the unions fault or the best we got so far.

That is like saying we have to fly around the world in airplanes when we should be doing in 10x less time.



Regardless of the issues, the only way to address the market forces and create artifical barriers is to get involved. Only then can we address the issues...

 

[:-)]

Fact is, if it wasn't for ALPA and their blind insistence on seniority over everything else, we could leave a carrier when they decide to screw us and shop our skills on the free market like everyone else does.

I'd like to suggest that you leave the airline business and sign up for a good, inbred, favoritism honoring, arse kissing, corporate flight department. The boss there will appreciate your disregard for the seniority system. Bosses like to be able to play employees against each other. Seniority prevents the abuse of co-workers by those who feel the need to stab everyone in the back as they scramble up the ladder. What part of that do you not understand?

 

[pilotyip]

Seniority is forever

E. Gann in 1939 wrote of being a slave to numbers at AAL, as he lost his Captain's seat and was downgraded as business slowed down and pilots were laid by date of hire.

 

[pianoman]

Umm.... do you guys understand that if we didn't have a seniority system it would all be about who can kiss whose ass the most?

Goodbye to upgrade or maybe even employment if you don't waive that contractual rest, since you're legal by the FAR's. Unsafe pencil-whipped airplane? You're taking it unless you want the next guy willing to take your job to fly it.

Some of you need to get out in the corporate world and observe how much it would suck if applied to our line of work.

My father-in-law was a hell of a good employee for a major telecom company as a research analyst. They got rid of the department. At 59, he can't get hired anywhere to save his life now, despite having 30 years experience and knowing his stuff inside out. Old guy, higher salary requirements? No thanks, we'll take the guy 1 year out of college who'll work for $40k/year.

I don't think life would be much different at an airline without seniority. The company would just lay off the older, higher paid guys to save costs and keep the junior ones who'd be happy to move up quickly.

No thanks.

 

[Jungle_Jet]

You know what's funny, 87% of the American public seem to manage just fine without some stupid, arbitrary number that relates to nothing except who got hired first.

How stupid is it that our careers depend on who got their resume in the door first? What does that have to do with marketable skill sets? Not a damn thing, which is why the real world doesn't use it.

Let's face it, the dirty secret is that unions (and especially ALPA) exist solely to protect the most senior members at the expense of those most junior. If you understand that and view things through that prism, than it begins to make sense.

My solution? We should start by sending unions packing. There's a reason that collectivism in the workplace doesn't work, and we are learning that the hard way. How about a points system or credit for hours logged, ratings, particular skill sets that are provable and show evidence of job-related abilities? We can send a man to the moon, create a phone that does everything my P.C. does, but we can't improve a system designed (by Socialists, no less) over 100 years ago that has died a well-deserved death in nearly every other (relevant) industry.

The funny thing regarding the sob story about having to ass kiss your way through some corporate dept is that you have the ability TO LEAVE AND FINDING ANOTHER JOB. There's plenty of them out there, folks.