National Airlines - KYIP - 757 FO's

[ERJDRVR]

The tabletops were passed first attempt at the evac stage, then proving runs

Sorry I didn't understand what you said. Did you say the tabletops and Evac were both passed first time and the proving runs were next?

 

[Hocus Focus]

1. Tabletops-complete
----------dot line------------------
2. Evac- to go
3. Proving-to go

 

[atpcliff]

I thought National was already operating 747-400s? I saw one some months ago, somewhere.

 

[GittinFatter]

AAI is operating the -400's with a "National" paintjob.

 

[Hocus Focus]

National's aircraft, AAI certificate, contract pilots.

 

[DC8CRIVER]

I certainly empathize with your situation (been there twice...), and understand your position, but for once, I have to agree with nitey's sentiment from a few posts above. National is currently looking to usurp our long and, if I may say so myself, appreciated history in the service of our nation. Not surprisingly, we're a day late and a few dollars long (yes, I mean it that way) in maintaining our well established history. However, we have had some previous competition where the lowest bidder won, and the reliability, or lack thereof, resulted in us getting called back. Same pig, new suit. I hope that your future, if any, with National is short lived, and that better digs find you, but in the short term, your experience combined with your interest and willingness to keep the lowest bidder alive hurts the rest of us, including the remains of your previous ride. It pains me to feel compelled to say that, and I say it with all deference to your situation, but the very thought of us losing any element of the niche we've spent over 20 years building to ANY low bidder is even more painful. Hang in there, and best of luck with whatever comes your way.

707 thanks for the good wishes. Good luck to us all.

I understand that there is some bad blood between the two airlines, but don't throw pilots under the bus as the cause of that feud.

I'd caution all of us to resist putting the blame on a particular pilot group for the existence of a bottom feeder like National. And my willingness to fly for them should not be confused with a willingness to keep them alive. Airlines like National will either succeed or fail for many reasons but pilot pay is probably one of the least important reasons.

I know for a fact that most of these bottom feeders are currently having a really difficult time with pilot staffing. They are shooting themselves in the foot. Even though they realize that when they pay such low wages, their turnover rate is astronomical and their consequent recruitment and training costs skyrocket, they blindly continue down the dirt wage path at the insistence of their bean counters. It is the company that sets the wage scale not the pilot group.

An argument could even be made that experienced pilots going to a low paying airline could hasten their demise by driving up these costs with the high turnover when they leave.

Has nite ever really met a pilot who said "Oh boy! Maybe I can jet a flying job that pays LESS!"?

And as you pointed out, their reliability due to poor performance suffers from staffing and other related issues as well.

Also consider that, with hard work from the pilot group, some former "bottom feeders" are now "respectable" airlines.

Where do we draw the line when it comes to who is the low paying airline that we shouldn't fly for? Under the current standard set by some people on these boards, a FedEx pilot would have the right to say that pretty much all the pilots at ANY other freight airline settling for low wages to take FedEx jobs away. Do we really want to start pointing fingers (like nite is) at our fellow pilots? It is the companies that are creating the situation - not the pilots.

Don't blame the soldiers for the war. Direct your anger at the right people - and it's not the pilots.

8

PS. It's a moot point in my case now, anyway. I've now got a class date with a "mid-level feeder" that may become a surface feeder someday soon ...

 

[pilotyip]

Where do we draw the line when it comes to who is the low paying airline that we shouldn't fly for? Under the current standard set by some people on these boards, a FedEx pilot would have the right to say that pretty much all the pilots at ANY other freight airline settling for low wages to take FedEx jobs away. Do we really want to start pointing fingers (like nite is) at our fellow pilots? It is the companies that are creating the situation - not the pilots.

I know a couple CA's there doin the 8, they seem happy and are making over 6 figs, it that bottom feeder? Am I lowering the bar when I took my present job at $42K/yr after Zantop kicked the bucket? I was unemployed and needed a job and at age 53 you don’t wait around too long for that next job. The prospective of what is acceptable pay, depends a lot on how much you are making at the time. At $250/wk to load cargo at IFL, that make $42K look mighty good.

 

[kntrdr]

Hocus, I do not work there, but like you, I know guys that do. Airlines are a small small community.

1. Tabletops-complete
----------dot line------------------
2. Evac- to go
3. Proving-to go

Interesting response with you failing to answer the question by admitting the FAA failure. Care to share the actual answer?

National's aircraft, AAI certificate, contract pilots.

To add to yet another partial truth to your response:

National Air Cargo Airplanes
Air Atlanta Icelandic certificate
Wet leased pilots to AAI who are on the National seniority list, (on leave).


Hocus, quit cherry picking the truth.

 

[Hocus Focus]

I dont know where you are getting your info from but it cant be a National pilot, I do not have a dog in the fight but I know for a fact that the AAI contract guys do not have seniority numbers because some of them are foreign nationals who do not have a right to work in the USA, there is not one single National Airlines pilot in Frankfurt on leave, the evac is yet to go, very few carriers have passed on the first attempt. National Air Cargo is the parent of National Airlines, NAC doesnt have a airline operating certificate so i think it will be kind of hard for NAC to fly 747's, SO to answer your questions :

AAI is Air Atlanta Icelandic
Evac is yet to go
Proving is yet to go
There are no YIP National pilots flying the AAI contract: atleast 4 of my friends are captains there in EDDF(that's Frankfurt) and they are making good money.

I can remember the same threads about KA in the 90's, when you were in elementary school, now the line is wrapped around their building. Pilots also used to call ATI a bottomfeeder back then but after a few accidents, new management, and a change in corporate culture that lifted them out of the ashes. so in closing, good luck National in transforming your company, it can be done

 

[nitefr8dog]

Thanks for the profile, but you have no idea what you are saying.

I've been a strong supporter of higher wages and better work rules (and a union member) for my entire 22 year airline career. Having been laid off of from a 14 year career with a strong six figure salary (which we fought long and hard for) I am in need of a job. Many of us looking at these jobs consider them to be stepping stones on to another, better, more lucrative, and more secure airline job. It's pretty tough to get hired when you're unemployed with little or no glass experience and you are out of currency even when you have gobs of time.

So lighten up with the criticism of those of us trying to reestablish our careers while keeping our families afloat. It ain't easy starting all over from the bottom.

And if you think the guys flying for rock bottom wages are not working their tails off for better wages and work rules, think again. They are working much harder at it than you can ever imagine.

So step down off of your lofty perch and take a ride with a crew that happens to be less fortunate than you are. You will discover (like I have) that you are just about one or two bad management decisions away from applying to National yourself.

8

Wrong....unlike you I do not have to have a job as a pilot to feel complete/accomplished. And I would not take a flying job at all cost to my family and quality of life. I would much rather be home working in another field for less..... than start over at a shi%bag outfit hoping someday "if" they make it I can finally make more than welfare wages. So often I hear pilots say "I do not know what I will do if I cannot find a flying job" Really? Seriously? We tell our kids then can do anything they want.... yet pilots can only be pilots? Give me a break.Do something, anything else. Be home with your family for a change. Saying "but I really want to have a career as a pilot" is hugely selfish career choice. If you are single now you will probably be married at some point...and your wife/family will spend the majority of of your career alone at home without you. I stay in this game because I make great money. If that goes away so do I ...and I rent a 172 to scratch my flying itch.