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Narrowbody Pilot Pay Comparison:

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savin47 said:
TonyC said:
I just barely noticed a television commercial for Citi ... bank?? corp?? something that started with Citi... I'll be watching for it now so I can correctly atribute and refine the quote... It goes something like this (and oh how true it is):







Overtime pays more because of what you are miuarssing.







[EDIT: Found it on the web... CITIBank ... and I corrected the last two words of the quote - - HEY, I was close! :)]

Yes, It is true. The intended consequence of this is: the loafers barely subsist, productivity is rewarded and if the sh## ever hits the fan we all go back to 70 hrs and we don't get to screw the jr. pukes.
What's with the misquoting? The word is MISSING.


Now, if you call doing one's job "loafing," and you are content with people who do their jobs, to use your words, "barely subsis[ing]," then I guess you have got something to brag about.


I didn't intend to hijack this thread, but do you realize what you just said? I understand how picking up extra time allows flexibility in manning and prevents furloughs and such, but what you're saying is that your pilots who just work regular time will barely subsist ! And you sound like you're PROUD of that!
 
oldxfr8dog said:
Not trying to start any fights...

Do you think this is a fatigue/safety issue, that is; is it safer to have 6 or 8 legs over a 16 hour duty day with an 8 hour block or 2 legs on a 11 hour day with a 9.5 hour block?
Or
Do you see this as a degradation of pilot contracts?

In your case, it wouldn't be a degradation of a pilot contract, since there IS no pilot contract, per se, that covers scheduling issues of that sort.

Furthermore, it's clear that you're not interested in an objective answer, since you have not posed an objective question. How, pray tell, do you propose to fit 9.5 block hours into 11 hours of duty? 10 minute preflights? Don't count taxi time as block or duty? 5 minute turns in LGB? 12 hours of duty would be more realistic.

Personally, I'd take the 2 leg day with a relief flight officer. If you're really interested in pilot-friendly schedules, you should run that by your friendly management. That'll get your airplanes back and forth in one day, it'll get your pilots all their hours in 7 work days, and it'll get that sweet deal for 50% MORE pilots, to boot. Maybe you could hire guys off the street into that position for 80% of the RJ rate, and they'll be grateful to move "up" to the RJ when it arrives on the property. You'd still wind up paying the Captain, FO, and RFO less than a legacy crew of 2 would get for the day.



:rolleyes:
 
Tony C,

Sorry, I have cursor jump issues. Must have messed up your quote.

70 hrs here is not "regular time" . The only time you will get 70 hrs is if you drop trips or go on vacation for the month. What it comes down to is, you fly two more days and make 30% more pay. It is a capitalistic plot, but it works.
 
TonyC said:
In your case, it wouldn't be a degradation of a pilot contract, since there IS no pilot contract, per se, that covers scheduling issues of that sort.

Furthermore, it's clear that you're not interested in an objective answer, since you have not posed an objective question. How, pray tell, do you propose to fit 9.5 block hours into 11 hours of duty? 10 minute preflights? Don't count taxi time as block or duty? 5 minute turns in LGB? 12 hours of duty would be more realistic.

Personally, I'd take the 2 leg day with a relief flight officer. If you're really interested in pilot-friendly schedules, you should run that by your friendly management. That'll get your airplanes back and forth in one day, it'll get your pilots all their hours in 7 work days, and it'll get that sweet deal for 50% MORE pilots, to boot. Maybe you could hire guys off the street into that position for 80% of the RJ rate, and they'll be grateful to move "up" to the RJ when it arrives on the property. You'd still wind up paying the Captain, FO, and RFO less than a legacy crew of 2 would get for the day.



:rolleyes:
No, believe it or not, I did want an opinion.
Stupid me.
Anyway, I'll extend it to 11.5 hours duty. Can't do a show/turn in less than 60 mins? OK, I guess that answers a lot of questions.
Sure, do I want to work one day a week, (every Tuesday!?) but that isn't the way it works.
You must be really senior, with that view of the world.
Screw those junior pukes...
 
MoGambo said:
How bout those Vols ??

I guess they only put in 70 hours for that SEC title game ??
If you're suggesting that they gave less than 100%, I suggest you're misguided.

I'd say they gave a great effort, and considering they were led by the third-string quarterback (1st and 2nd are out injured) they gave a very respectable performance. They actually improved over the score of the first meeting with Auburn earlier in the season with a healthy team. This time, they came from a 2 touchdown deficit to tie the game at 21, and held Auburn's lead to just 10 points. I think the oddsmakers had Auburn with 2 TDs, so we beat their predictions.

But I digress.


Oh, the topic of the forum... I believe it is valid to compare pay rates throughout the industry based on standard pay rates and monthly guarantees. If you want to make comparisons to what is actually flown on average, I think JetBlue will come up even shorter.
 
General Lee said:
oldxfr8dog,


What other rules would you guys like to change next? How about marrying your own sister? Sound good? What is next?


Bye Bye---General Lee
Naw, I'd choose YOUR sisiter.

Everybody knows she has no gag reflex.
 
oldxfr8dog said:
No, believe it or not, I did want an opinion.
Stupid me.
Anyway, I'll extend it to 11.5 hours duty. Can't do a show/turn in less than 60 mins? OK, I guess that answers a lot of questions.
Sure, do I want to work one day a week, (every Tuesday!?) but that isn't the way it works.
You must be really senior, with that view of the world.
Screw those junior pukes...
I'll still take the 9.5 Block Hours and an RFO - - all 3 scheduled for < 8 hours block. Just because you're at cruise in a glass cockpit, it doesn't mean you're not working and must not be alert. Throw in winds, weather, ATC delays, mechanicals, and a myriad of other problems along the way, and your scheduled 9.5 block quickly turns into 10.5 block. Cap it off with a CatIII with gusty crosswinds and a cluttered runway, and all of a sudden you have a challenge. If my Mom's aboard, I want the Captain to be rested.

As a matter of fact, I'm not really senior. I'm a lot closer to the bottom of the list than the top. Frankly, though, I don't understand where you're getting that, anyway. If the 9.5 Out-and-backs are gonna be so great, they'll surely go senior. How can that be good for junuior guys? In any event, as long as there is a seniority system, the senior pilots will get the better schedules, and the junior guys will get the leftovers. So, what's new?


If the marathon days are good, then 7 of them in a row will be even better, so commuters can minimize their days away from home. Better start working on THAT waiver, too.

:rolleyes:
 
TonyC said:
I'll still take the 9.5 Block Hours and an RFO - - all 3 scheduled for < 8 hours block. Just because you're at cruise in a glass cockpit, it doesn't mean you're not working and must not be alert. Throw in winds, weather, ATC delays, mechanicals, and a myriad of other problems along the way, and your scheduled 9.5 block quickly turns into 10.5 block. Cap it off with a CatIII with gusty crosswinds and a cluttered runway, and all of a sudden you have a challenge. If my Mom's aboard, I want the Captain to be rested.

As a matter of fact, I'm not really senior. I'm a lot closer to the bottom of the list than the top. Frankly, though, I don't understand where you're getting that, anyway. If the 9.5 Out-and-backs are gonna be so great, they'll surely go senior. How can that be good for junuior guys? In any event, as long as there is a seniority system, the senior pilots will get the better schedules, and the junior guys will get the leftovers. So, what's new?


If the marathon days are good, then 7 of them in a row will be even better, so commuters can minimize their days away from home. Better start working on THAT waiver, too.

:rolleyes:
No, I'm not saying > 8 is good or < 8 is good or bad. I'm saying there is NASA research and evidence for fatigue studies.
Last time I discussed this was in Artesia, NM. A beer-drinking buddy in the Coyote, stated he was "zoned-out" driving home after a 6-hour flight, KSFO- PHNL-10 hours-hotel-and 5 hours back. Said he didn't remember the drive home, sun-in-his-eyes, etc... He was worse-off than just coming back home after a 45 min turn?
Sh*T, if we can show a benefit for flying 30 minutes a week, sign me up!
This is worse than just coming home to the same time-zone/bed? In a glass cockpit?
I just want my company to be safe and profitable. Not some "You OWE us this!!", cry from a junior lineholder at some Legacy because someone else negociated it. I paid my dues. I'm second generation, my Dad, paid his/my dues in this business.
Yeah, he warned me to do something else. I just loved these **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** airplanes too much to do anything else.
OK, insult me as you will...
 
TonyC said:
If you're suggesting that they gave less than 100%, I suggest you're misguided.

I'd say they gave a great effort, and considering they were led by the third-string quarterback (1st and 2nd are out injured) they gave a very respectable performance. They actually improved over the score of the first meeting with Auburn earlier in the season with a healthy team. This time, they came from a 2 touchdown deficit to tie the game at 21, and held Auburn's lead to just 10 points. I think the oddsmakers had Auburn with 2 TDs, so we beat their predictions.

But I digress.


Oh, the topic of the forum... I believe it is valid to compare pay rates throughout the industry based on standard pay rates and monthly guarantees. If you want to make comparisons to what is actually flown on average, I think JetBlue will come up even shorter.
War Eagle baby!
 
TonyC said:
Just because you're at cruise in a glass cockpit, it doesn't mean you're not working and must not be alert. Throw in winds, weather, ATC delays, mechanicals, and a myriad of other problems along the way, and your scheduled 9.5 block quickly turns into 10.5 block. Cap it off with a CatIII with gusty crosswinds and a cluttered runway, and all of a sudden you have a challenge. If my Mom's aboard, I want the Captain to be rested.


No one that ever objects to this issue on the grounds of safety ever touches this point that is always brought up:

Airline X

0500 show
5 legs
8.0 block time
2000 release time
15 hours duty time

Airline Y

0500 show
1 leg
6.0 block time
10 hrs rest
1 leg (red eye)
5.5 block time
0600 release time
11.5 total block over 25 hours with a day sleep and a red eye

Airline Z

0600 show
2 legs
11.5 block
1900 release time
13 hours duty time


Which of these 3 planes do you want your mother on when the crap hits the fan? I've done X and Y, and I know that I've been zoned out on landing. I really don't see how Z is not safe. If it's not safe, then we should all be writing our congressmen demanding that they drop the duty day to 12 hours and get rid of day sleeps. But we won't do that, will we? Because we all want X and Y to still be an option, so we can get paid.
 
savin47 said:
Try Imodium Advanced with a Zanex chaser works for me when I receive my check and at top of descent.

140K is at least in the top 7% of incomes in this country. Sure I would like to make more and we will. I certainly don't feel that I am getting hosed.
And there, ladies and gentlemen, is the problem. An attitude of, "hey, I'm getting paid pretty well, and I get to fly airplanes. OH BOY!"

You, sir, are making about 30% less than what folks flying your equipment were making 5-10 years ago. Why? Because you're willing to make that.

Don't think for one second there isn't a 1000 pilots out there wanting to do your job for 30% less than what you're making. And don't think your managment isn't going to shoot for that.

"$100,000!!! And I get to be an airbus captain?!!! I'll take it!!!!" (Sounds of seals barking in the background)
 
oldxfr8dog,

Well, I have an older brother, and I think you might like that.....Not that there is anything wrong with that.



Bye Bye--General Lee
 
flyguppy said:
You, sir, are making about 30% less than what folks flying your equipment were making 5-10 years ago. Why? Because you're willing to make that.

And some pilots are making 32.5% less than they were 8 days ago. What does that have to do with anything. The willingness to work for less has never been proprietary to one pilot group, you could use a pretty broad brush in this industry, and apparently no one is immune. Are you?
 
canyonblue said:
And some pilots are making 32.5% less than they were 8 days ago. What does that have to do with anything. The willingness to work for less has never been proprietary to one pilot group, you could use a pretty broad brush in this industry, and apparently no one is immune. Are you?
Eminem,

What does it have to do with?

The profession is in the toilet. Can you imagine being an RJ pilot right now? What are your prospects? A big paying airline job? Pffffffft......

I'm not picking out one pilot group. And no one is immune. Certainly not me. Making 40%+ less as an airbus captain compared to what the industry average was 5-10 years ago.

"It's what the market will bear....." you might say. A market created by whom? The consumer? I think not. We need to look no further than the mirror to see why pilots' salaries are down year over year, WAY down.
 
Last edited:
flyguppy,

This explains why I don't feel like I'm being taken advantage of right now. We are in the middle of a battle. Not a good time to be acting all pissy like you.





THE MIDDLE SEAT
By SCOTT MCCARTNEY



Airlines Retreat As Price Wars Take Their Toll

Pullbacks by Incumbents And Low-Cost Challengers Are Starting to Raise Fares
Wall Street Journal, December 7, 2004; Page D4

In some of the nation's most intense airline battles, huge losses finally are forcing retreat.

American Airlines will pull out of the Boston-Fort Lauderdale, Fla., market next month, giving up on a route where JetBlue Airways and other discounters have driven fares so low that American is losing money with mostly full flights.

American surrendered to low-cost carriers in the New York-Long Beach, Calif., and New York-Phoenix markets last month. UAL's United Airlines is taking lots of seats out of transcontinental markets, where $200 round trips have been a blessing for travelers and a curse for airlines. By the end of January, Delta Air Lines will have shut down one of its four domestic hubs.

The retreats aren't limited to the big higher-cost airlines. America West Airlines has scaled back its foray into nonstop flights between California and New York. Frontier Airlines will end its experiment to build a minihub in Los Angeles. Struggling Independence Air is canceling its service to Lansing, Mich., and Dayton, Ohio. AirTran Airways has pulled out of two cities where it couldn't roust enough traffic: Greensboro, N.C., and Tallahassee, Fla.

For travelers, the retreats will mean some fares will go up. Pricing between New York and Los Angeles, for example, has bumped up a bit. The lowest round-trip price for travel this week between New York's Kennedy Airport and Los Angeles International was $342 on American, United or Delta, according to Orbitz.com. That route was flooded with $200 round trips without Saturday-night stay requirements last summer.

Boston-San Francisco, one of the routes completely dropped by America West, has gotten a lot pricier. America West offered an unrestricted walk-up fare of $598 round trip, which was matched by American and United. But on Nov. 1, the day after America West dropped out, American and United jumped the unrestricted fare to $1,428.

"Airlines are less willing to invest in developmental flying," said J. Scott Kirby, executive vice president of sales and marketing at America West. "Given the financial condition of the airline industry, you really don't have any other choice right now."

Far more retreating may be necessary if airlines are to start earning money again, especially if oil prices stay above $40 a barrel. The nation's 10 major airlines suffered combined net losses of $1.3 billion in the third quarter. For the fourth quarter, despite robust holiday travel, only Southwest Airlines is expected to make a profit.

That has forced many to rethink some of their flights of fancy. Carriers are retreating back to where they are strong: their biggest hubs and strongest routes. American, for example, is moving more planes to its Dallas-Fort Worth hub, where Delta is dropping from 254 flights a day to 21. (American also is grounding 15 narrow-body jets.) Delta is retreating back to Atlanta and Cincinnati, its strongest hubs.

"In this environment, what we have concluded is we've got to take a hard, long-term look at our network and decide where we have a long-term future," Gerard Arpey, chairman and chief executive of American-parent AMR Corp., said during a conference call with analysts.

American has kept a robust schedule from New York to Los Angeles, for example, but trying to sit on top of JetBlue, which flies from New York to Long Beach, was hurting too much. The airline, Mr. Arpey said, will "basically draw a line in the sand around our strengths, and then from there, not retreat."

That doesn't mean higher-cost carriers are letting up at all on discounters, or discounters are slowing their attacks on incumbents, either. The bigger incumbents have slashed their costs and are better able to defend core markets, and the upstarts have lots of new airplanes coming that will go to battle. The fighting will continue to be fierce.

But with airline finances as tattered as an old ticket jacket, both sides are being careful about how bold they get.

America West tried to become a player in once-lucrative transcontinental markets, launching 24 flights a day last summer linking Boston, New York and Washington with San Francisco and Los Angeles. American, United and Delta added flights, and markets got flooded with too many seats.

That hurt, Mr. Kirby of America West said, but so did high oil prices. Even if the airline had hit its revenue targets, flights would have been unprofitable with oil at $50 a barrel.

Now, the carrier based in Phoenix is down to 10 flights, and considering further cuts. Planes have been switched to seasonally stronger markets, such as Mexican beach destinations and Florida.

Frontier, based in Denver, tried to become a bigger player in Los Angeles, adding nonstop flights to Minneapolis, Kansas City, St. Louis and Philadelphia last spring. Losses were expected while Frontier tried to make its name known to customers in those cities. But jet fuel prices made losses bigger than anticipated, a Frontier spokesman said.

The airline dropped Minneapolis and St. Louis nonstops from Los Angeles, and will discontinue Kansas City and Philadelphia on Feb. 23. Too bad for travelers: Department of Transportation data show the average fare on the Los Angeles-Minneapolis route fell 37% when Frontier was flying, to $224 round trip in the second quarter from $356 a year earlier.

Frontier still will offer connections through its Denver hub; planes that had been flying nonstops from Los Angeles will be used to build up Denver now.

AirTran said it used planes that had been flying to Greensboro and Tallahassee to boost service to bigger cities. "We tried everything we knew to make it work and it didn't work," AirTran spokesman Tad Hutcheson said.

For some carriers, fuel costs have depleted cash so quickly that retreat is a matter of absolute necessity. Independence Air has to sell four planes to raise cash, a spokesman said. That means the airline based in Washington had to drop Lansing and Dayton.

"For us, it's a matter of working through liquidity issues," said Independence Air spokesman Rick DeLisi.
 
Hutcha said:
Which of these 3 planes do you want your mother on when the crap hits the fan? I've done X and Y, and I know that I've been zoned out on landing. I really don't see how Z is not safe. If it's not safe, then we should all be writing our congressmen demanding that they drop the duty day to 12 hours and get rid of day sleeps.
You've done X and Y and been zoned out on landing, so why not invent new ways to be zoned out on landing?!?! It's only by EXCEPTION to FAR 121.471(b)(3) that Option Y is even legal (> 11 hrs rest for 9 hours of block). Why do we want to invent new exceptions, new ways, to "zone out on landing"?

I'll write the letter - - wanna sign it?
 

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