My suggestion to ALPA and the pilots

[D'Angelo]

I don't think there's any industry in the world that would stand for such a single compensation structure. Certainly no business in the United States. If you don't like working in a world where companies pay what the labor market will sustain go somewhere else.

The only way a union can have leverage is with the threat of a credible strike. The RLA pretty much killed that baby for the airline industry. Even if ALPA was united behind a single concept (let's make it simple, the same color tie for all pilots) what can they do to enforce it if a company says "well we prefer pink". Nothing.

ALPA no longer has any teeth, I don't know what the alternative is, but companies whipsawing pilot groups against each other until the lowest cost provider is found will continue. It's happened in all sorts of once proud industries and now it's happening to this one. Get over it or get out.

All our whipsaws are belong to us. Absolutely correct. Its definately not a world for the weak which is what most pilots are. Thats right you are all weak babies demanding outlandish wages, benefits, etc yet offering no solutions to todays problems. Whining gets you absolutely no where. Start coming up with solutions first then ask for money

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The problem with this discussion is the assumption that the "system" is broken. I don't think that is the case. I think the system is working just as it should. It just isn't working the way you want it to work. To sit there and say "It should be this way or that way" is futile, and quite frankly a bit childish.

If there is a problem, it is this: too many eager young space cadets,having seen the fat lifestyle that the old school major employees lived, now want the same for themselves. Except that they are comparing apples to oranges. Today's airline industry has nothing to do with the airline industry of 30 years ago. Unfortunately the flight training schools, who have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion, are leaving that out of their advertising brochures.

Today I read an advertisement for the local police department, hiring police officers. A lot of the same working conditions (shifts, holidays, etc), and definately a higher risk work environment. Starting pay was over $51000, in a small town of about 35000.
If police offers, who really do put their lives on the line every day, are getting paid only 51K, why should airline pilots make more?

Agreed!

The idea is to find new innovative ways to make this job a career again.

Looking back at the old ways and saying 'aw shucks, how come we can't get what they got' is going to do us no good...

standing around an blaming ALPA isn't going to do any good either...

Getting involved in your Air Line Career is the best way.. If ALPA needs to be fixed or replaced then so be it... but we have to take more control of our own Careers...

 

[No Delay]

Wow, this has been a good thread...great discussions.

It has been said but I wanted to jump in too.

SUPPLY and DEMAND! 100LL is absolutely correct. The only way to correct it is to limit supply. It would be nice if the FAA would set higher quals for airline pilots...maybe limit the number of ATPs issued each year. Maybe ATP should be issued on a competitive basis. 100 ATPs to be issued - they get awarded to the top (most experienced) pilots. Then require an ATP to work for a 121 operation. (135's have higher qualifications than 121).

The medical fields do this all the time. However, they actually control the supply at the beginning stages. They limit the number of schools and the number of students accepted into medical school. A good friend of mine has been trying to get into dental hygeine school. She makes straight A's but didn't get accepted...because there was only a few slots and there were others a little higher scores.

I think 4 things are killing this profession (not really killing but accelerating the down swing of a free market system).

1. The FAA will allow an unlimited number of pilots. (Unlimited Supply).
-D'angelo made some good points too...the FAA is not going to change just so we can make money. People will have to die first.

2. The airlines have no minimum (apart from certificate minimums) experience / flight time requirements.
- There will never be a shortage of pilots as long as airlines can lower there hiring minimums. (Unlimited Supply).

3. Anyone can start a flight school. (Unlimited Supply)
- Hell, I did it myself. After I got my CFI, I bought a C172 and started my own flight school. I was a one man show...but a flight school none the less.
You don't see doctors starting their own medical schools????

4. Low first year salaries! <=== There is still time to fix this one!
If ALPA could fix one thing...this should be it! Low first year salaries are killing us.

It locks a pilot into a company. After a couple of years, the pilot can't afford to go to another company. He knows if he leaves...it's back to poverty. This allows the company to walk all over the pilots. Companies want their senior pilots to leave. It is cheaper to train a new hire anyway!

If we did away with first year pay...
If the company doesn't treat me fairly...I will leave. Now, the company has to train a newhire and pay him about the same as they were paying me. Companies would lose a fortune in training cost. They would then start seeing value in keeping their employees happy...which should in turn improve the airline.

I think this could cause an entire shift.... companies are now having to pay more for their employees...now they will want to get more for their money and want to hire more experienced pilots...slowly creating a demand for experienced pilots...and the whole supply and demand could swing the other direction.

That's my 3 cents....and I haven't heard anyone else discuss it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well... for your number 1-3... the big question...again is HOW.

As for number 4..... again HOW! Well, that is easy, get informed and support your NC. And understand that you are going to give something up to get higher first year pay. Not alot of pilot groups want to give something up for new guys for one year, when they've been their for years and want a QOL for longer than one year..

For example, the NC says We want first year pay to be $33+ an hour. The company says... for new guys on probation who aren't proven? Well, ok... then take $1 off the Capt pay rates.

Problem is, in all professional fields, once we complete the Newbie phase we tend to wash our hands clean of it. How about these doctors who do 36+ hour shifts fatigued. The reply from the senior docs... "Well I had to do it!"

Good dicussion, but the answers aren't quick and easy....

We've got to get involved and informed...

 

[FCPhotography]

If you guys really want to secure well paying airline jobs for the future there will have to be a shortage of pilots.

Since the FAA will not raise the bar and since they actually are lowering it (waivers at regionals), there will not be a shortage of pilots unless there are a string of crashes caused by low time pilots.

The best thing you can do is discourage potential commercial pilots.

In 5-7 years if there is a shortage, airlines will have to attract pilots instead of the current situation of 10,000 pilots who will do it for $18,000 a year.

The last 15 years of your career might have a chance.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Frankly, I am surprised at the number of people who say "It's gonna happen, so deal with it." I hope you don't display that same attitude when flying (i.e. resignation)

 

[CFIse]

Frankly, I am surprised at the number of people who say "It's gonna happen, so deal with it." I hope you don't display that same attitude when flying (i.e. resignation)

Big difference - according to my FAA certificates and the training department I can influence the outcome of my flights (and for now we'll assume I can influence them in a good way).

I have no control over the industry. About the best thing I can do for the industry is quit, so they'll be one less pilot looking for work. I hope you can see how that's not an attractive solution personally. Perhaps you could quit and help me out???

 

[CopilotDoug]

Big difference - according to my FAA certificates and the training department I can influence the outcome of my flights (and for now we'll assume I can influence them in a good way).

I have no control over the industry. About the best thing I can do for the industry is quit, so they'll be one less pilot looking for work. I hope you can see how that's not an attractive solution personally. Perhaps you could quit and help me out???

I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, CFI. But this perfectly displays alot of the attitudes harbored by pilots in the Regional Airline world. I can't do anything about it, and me, me, me... of course the success will be limited with these attitudes. "The Union knows what's best for me, because I'm just a pilot. Big Brother ALPA will tell me what to do because they have MY best interest in mind" ALPA is looking out for one group...ALPA. What makes more money for ALPA: a striking pilot, or a pilot with a 30% salary cut? Of course you always have the people who say "Take the poor pay because it's either adapt or die."

I say why not use that mantra on management? Get over better compensation for pilots because you either adapt or die"

 

[CFIse]

I hope you don't mind me using you as an example, CFI. But this perfectly displays alot of the attitudes harbored by pilots in the Regional Airline world. I can't do anything about it, and me, me, me... of course the success will be limited with these attitudes. "The Union knows what's best for me, because I'm just a pilot. Big Brother ALPA will tell me what to do because they have MY best interest in mind" ALPA is looking out for one group...ALPA. What makes more money for ALPA: a striking pilot, or a pilot with a 30% salary cut? Of course you always have the people who say "Take the poor pay because it's either adapt or die."

Everybody acts in their own enlightened self interest. People who act in their own self-interest and find that it also serves a higher purpose take the moral high ground and lord it over everybody else. Few people (and my hats off to those that do) choose the moral high ground when it's NOT in their best interest.

Your post also seems to say we'd be better off without ALPA because ALPA(national) acts in it's own self interest. Well a) I agree but b) what's the alternative, another union that acts in it's own self interest? Bottom line ALPA is me, if I'm not active within my MEC then I deserve everything that gets thrown my way, but I still can't influence the industry, just my little corner, and frankly not much of that.

One day, when I'm ALPA President it'll all be different - let's hope I don't get corrupted on my rise to power, or perhaps, since I act in my own self-interest let me hope I go get corrupted on the way up - I'd be happy with Duane's salary in return for his performance.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Everybody acts in their own enlightened self interest. People who act in their own self-interest and find that it also serves a higher purpose take the moral high ground and lord it over everybody else. Few people (and my hats off to those that do) choose the moral high ground when it's NOT in their best interest.

Your post also seems to say we'd be better off without ALPA because ALPA(national) acts in it's own self interest. Well a) I agree but b) what's the alternative, another union that acts in it's own self interest? Bottom line ALPA is me, if I'm not active within my MEC then I deserve everything that gets thrown my way, but I still can't influence the industry, just my little corner, and frankly not much of that.

One day, when I'm ALPA President it'll all be different - let's hope I don't get corrupted on my rise to power, or perhaps, since I act in my own self-interest let me hope I go get corrupted on the way up - I'd be happy with Duane's salary in return for his performance.

If you can affect your company in a positive way, other airline pilots will use your airline as a watermark to improve their contracts.

As far as Duane goes, that guy got to the top like everybody else: he played ball. Not too conservative...not too liberal, he spoke well and handed out "Vote for Duane" pins. Basically he bullsh!ted his way to the top. And that's where alot of good ideas are lost is in the politics of the industry. Kick the lawyers out and simplify the negotiating process.