multiengine.net

[ePilot22]

Um Duh!

Jesus H. Christ, here we go again.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=67808


http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=68353






eP.

 

[AerroMatt]

Let me ask you this AerroMatt....do you think safety pilot time is legit to log when guys aren't even touching the controls? There are thousands of guys with this kind of time in their logbooks at just about every operator in existance. Nobody seems to give a rat's azz about that. In fact every single pilot coming out of places like Ariben and ATP have safety pilot time in their logbooks. Obviously they got regional jobs.

Honestly, the pft/pfj issue really doesn't apply to this particular situation. The actual "job" is being performed by the paid employee/pilot, not the timebuilder.

Shoot, my FAR/AIM is at the office and I've been out flying all day, so I am unable to quote Chapter and Verse what can and cannot be logged. However, I'll attempt to do this from memory. Please excuse me if I miss some of the finer points.

As I recall, the FAR's allow flight under simulated IMC using a "hood" provided an appropriately rated pilot is aboard to act as a safety pilot. Now I do not recall any regulation regarding the logging of flight time for the safety pilot under this, but it would seem to me that the safety pilot could legally log the time the PIC was under the hood only. He could not log it as PIC, nor could he log the flight time where the PIC wasn't under the hood. As per FAR's, the PIC is the sole manipulator of the controls. This is the ONLY reference to "Safety Pilot" in the FAR's that I am aware of.

I do not know how these particular 141 schools that you mentioned operate. However, if the "Safety Pilot" is logging PIC time, then it is NOT legitimate. If the Safety Pilot is logging any time under other than "Hood" time for another pilot, it is NOT legitimate.

The regionals are experiencing tremendous growth, and they will hire anybody who appears to meet their qualifications. This has allowed a lot of people to get hired that really don't have the minimum experience necessary. Until a major disaster happens, it will continue. The air carriers who do this operate at their peril, and they place an undue burden on both their training department, and their Captains who have to babysit the neophytes under their care. When the general public gets word of it, they may demand major changes from the FAA through Congress.

My last two jobs were both at 135 operators. In the earlier one I was a training Captain, and at the latter I was Chief Pilot. At the earlier job, we simply wouldn't hire someone from a "Fast-Track" flight academy. The president wouldn't even consider someone from the bigger flying Universities due to the attitude those grads exuded, "I graduated from (add your favorite Academy here), I deserve this job, and you must hire me." But at both jobs, I found plenty of new hires whose flight skills were way below what I expected of someone with the minimun flight experience for 135 PIC or SIC. When I dug deeper, I usually found they had taken some kind of shortcut like these time building scams to get the times they claimed to have, or they had lied outright about their flight times. They usually didn't last long, because they couldn't perform to expectations.

Now back to the PFJ as you put it, maybe I should use a different analogy. Let's say you need an appendectomy. Your local hospital charges you for all the procedures. They also charge the Surgeon and the Nurses for the priviledge of operating on you! After all, they have to learn somewhere, right? But would you, the customer, want to be operated on knowing that the Surgeon and the Nurses are also paying to operate on you to gain experience? What would you think if you met a Surgeon before he operated on you in this situation if he told you, "Hi, I'm Dr Who, and I am so happy to be allowed to operate on you, I paid the hospital $5000.00 from my own pocket to do it! It's my first operation of this type, and I can assure you that I will do a great job."? How are you going to feel about this particular Doc working on you?

Maybe the oil companies that contract with this pipeline patrol are aware of their practices, and maybe not. Once again, nothing will happen so long as a disaster doesn't happen. But the principle still applies. The legality of the "timebuilding" is already pretty clear, and someday operations like multiengine.net will be either shut down or forced to change their ways.

Meantime, I continue to learn how people try to shortcut experience requirements. I shake my head, and I learn more about what to look for and ask of an applicant to my company.

 

[AerroMatt]

Your a funny guy, I'll give you that, but you have absolutely no clue what this operation is all about. And you dont know SQUAT about pipeline patrol ops, because ALL of them are conducted under part 91, very legally.

OK, you got me there. I was writing rather quickly before I went to work. Now when I think about it, I realize that FAR 119 includes pipeline patrol as one of the exemptions to 135 or 121. Thank you for correcting me.

I've been a patrol pilot for several years now, so believe me I KNOW the regs. Guys like you that are so quick to chastize some one for even considering a program like this one would much rather whore yourselves out to a regional or pisshouse charter operation somewhere, flying junked out rattletrap airplanes for a slaves wage, apparently.

Let's see... I first whored myself to a charter operator way back in 1999. I reckon this makes me an old timer.

I cant imagine the dignity and self respect you must feel when you slide into that uniform and climb aboard your shiny bird to collect that $1000 a month paycheck.

For the record, I have never worked for a part 121 operator. Certainly haven't flown any Regional Jets, nor have I suffered from Shiny New Jet syndrome.

OR maybe you troll around and around the pattern all day with students in a Duchess, PRAYING that you might get enough multi time built up by the time you're 40 to go look for that holy grail job you think you're entitled to because you've been told that this is the only accepted way to "pay your dues". Give me a friggin break! Bitch about programs like this one all you want... but until some of you holier than though types that slam every program like this one that comes down the pike actually stop the big talk and START standing up for what you preach, you hold no weight with me.

Guess what, agpilot dude? Not only am I over 40, I've already got that Holy Grail Job! :smash: And yes, I do practice what I preach. Read on.

And by the way, I'm FAR from being a low timer... I just passed the 5,000 hr mark last month

Congrats, but I got you beat by 2000 hours

and fly an average of 120 hrs a month on pipeline patrol.

Geeze! You need to take a break, dude!

This program is no more of a short cut than some kid's rich daddy paying 40 grand to put him through a 90 day fast track program at some regional academy, a the end of which he is "guaranteed" a right seat in whatever flavor of the day they happen to be flying.

I totally disagree. The rich daddy's kid will still have to pass my acid test, i.e. can he act as a captain? If the kid can't, I'll send him down the road as unemployable by me. Same goes for the short-cut operations grads. As a Director of Flight Operations for a Corporation, my insurance requirements are welded into my brain (not riveted). I will not hire someone who has bogus flight experience in their logbook. It is not the quantity of a potential hire's time that I look at, it is the quality of that time!

Oh yes, BTW... I soloed back in 1985, earned my Private in '86, Inst in '87, Comm and CFI in '88 and my CFII in '90. I reckon this makes me an Old Fart, huh?

 

[The_Russian]

The air carriers who do this operate at their peril, and they place an undue burden on both their training department, and their Captains who have to babysit the neophytes under their care. When the general public gets word of it, they may demand major changes from the FAA through Congress.

The public knows and nothing has been done. This has been going on since the dawn of aviation. So, if you cannot be a junior pilot at any operation, where do you propose that young pilots get their experience?

At the earlier job, we simply wouldn't hire someone from a "Fast-Track" flight academy. The president wouldn't even consider someone from the bigger flying Universities due to the attitude those grads exuded, "I graduated from (add your favorite Academy here), I deserve this job, and you must hire me."

This is the most unprofessional and ignorant mindset possible. It is sad that this happens in our industry. It's pure and only root is jealousy. The fact is, Academy 141 pilots are generally much more knowledgeable, professional, and safer than student pilots and pilots who have attended unstructured programs.

But at both jobs, I found plenty of new hires whose flight skills were way below what I expected of someone with the minimun flight experience for 135 PIC or SIC. When I dug deeper, I usually found they had taken some kind of shortcut like these time building scams to get the times they claimed to have, or they had lied outright about their flight times. They usually didn't last long, because they couldn't perform to expectations.

Some pilots really don't care about aviation. Some pilots really don't know crap about flying of flying subjects. You will find that this type of pilot comes from all backgrounds.

Please define "shortcut".

Now back to the PFJ as you put it, maybe I should use a different analogy. Let's say you need an appendectomy. Your local hospital charges you for all the procedures. They also charge the Surgeon and the Nurses for the priviledge of operating on you! After all, they have to learn somewhere, right? But would you, the customer, want to be operated on knowing that the Surgeon and the Nurses are also paying to operate on you to gain experience? What would you think if you met a Surgeon before he operated on you in this situation if he told you, "Hi, I'm Dr Who, and I am so happy to be allowed to operate on you, I paid the hospital $5000.00 from my own pocket to do it! It's my first operation of this type, and I can assure you that I will do a great job."? How are you going to feel about this particular Doc working on you?

Bad analogy. Since the doctor should already be a commercial pilot, he should already know how to perfrom the surgery or "flying" that he is paying for. As far as the FAA is concerned, these pilots are qualified. I can't say all of them are "good" at what they do. Some folks will always be bad pilots, some need more experience to improve. A program like Gulfstream can make or break a pilot. As far as the second to last sentence, everyone has their first time somewhere in the 121 field. Therefore, that arguement doesn't work.

Meantime, I continue to learn how people try to shortcut experience requirements. I shake my head, and I learn more about what to look for and ask of an applicant to my company.

What requirements? The ones in your head? Who are you looking for, ole' Chucky?

 

[The_Russian]

I totally disagree. The rich daddy's kid will still have to pass my acid test, i.e. can he act as a captain? If the kid can't, I'll send him down the road as unemployable by me. Same goes for the short-cut operations grads.

This statement, once again, stems from some sort of jealousy over money. Get over it Matty boy. This world is full of rich pukes everywhere. Actually, most of the guys that have attended the 141 and 142 programs I have been involved in have been prior military or in debt, not rich. Some of the short cut operation grads are pretty sharp, some are not. Just like with CFI's. Some are sharp, some are not. This goes for the military bros too. People suck from every career path.

I will not hire someone who has bogus flight experience in their logbook. It is not the quantity of a potential hire's time that I look at, it is the quality of that time!

If you are looking for a pilot with good SA, then time doesn't matter at all.

 

[The_Russian]

If it is considered unsafe for an SIC to have 250 hours TT for a 121 operation. Why is it considered safe for a CFI to have only 250 hours teaching primary students how to fly?

If your arguement that ability, knowledge, and SA are poor in low time pilots. Why should they be allow to teach others initial aircraft operation with no "real world" experience under their belt? What would the public say about this?

Did your career begin with this path? Did you take the time to think that your 10 dollar an hour CFI job was taking instructor positions from career CFI's that are attempting to make a real living?

Remember: "Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself."

 

[AerroMatt]

Exellents posts, Russian. I'll stick by what I posted earlier. Would love to discuss your ideas about this subject in person over an adult beverage. :beer:

I agree with you that a pilot with good SA is GOLD! Wish I could find more of them...

Matt

 

[agpilot34]

I agree with what you're saying about experience, and quality of time versus quantity. On those points, we are in total agreement. BUT I do know several guys who are just naturally gifted aviators, and have been ever since they started flying. A couple of them could fly circles around guys with 2000 hrs when they barely had their commercial multi and instrument ratings. If someone like that came to you looking for a job, exhibited great piloting skills, decision making ability, good judgement, and projected themselves with a professional attitude, are you saying you wouldnt hire them or at least give them a chance JUST because of where and how they got their time? I dotn agree with the PFT scams either, but this particular operation just doesnt strike me as being the same thing. I've flown with guys who pencil whipped their logbooks in order to get a job, and I can spot them a mile away. But if a guy comes to me genuinely seeking a job, and proves to me he can fly, use good judgement, and make good decisions, I just dont see not at least considering him just because of the method he used to build his time.

"Geez! You need to take a break, dude!" NAH, I like it like that... fast and furious! It's really not as bad as it sounds, if you really like to fly! No, your not THAT much of an old fart, because I soloed in '89, got my commercial in '91 and started flying ag. Did that for four years, until the operator I was working for closed up shop, then I got out of flying for a few years. Got back into it in '98 and have been flying patrol ops ever since. If you're an old fart, I'm not TOO far behind you. Sounds like you've got lots of good experience to back you up.:beer:

 

[The_Russian]

Exellents posts, Russian. I'll stick by what I posted earlier. Would love to discuss your ideas about this subject in person over an adult beverage. :beer:

I agree with you that a pilot with good SA is GOLD! Wish I could find more of them...

Matt

Thanks. You handle this tough subject well. Let's get wasted!

 

[John2375]

Well I pretty much anticipated this war breaking out, however I was hoping somebody who'd DONE the program would chime in, either on the board or in a private message to tell me their experiences.

There is a big difference between PFJ (which I do NOT support) and this. A PFJ program takes away a job from somebody, such as Gulfstream or Key Lime Air.
This program however, isn't offering the job to anybody. I should also mention that they told me you fly left-seat, fwiw.
However, this would be PFJ if they advertised the position for hire but when no one was around to do so, allowed people to pay for the position.
That's not the case here. They're not offering any jobs to anyone. They are offering 100 hours of twin-time for cheap, getting what they want out of it (extra ca$h and another pilot onboard) and you're getting what you want (quality twin time for CHEAP) And it IS quality - it's not drilling holes in the sky aimlessly watching the Hobbs meter tick away - you're doing quality flying with a purpose.
It's a win-win-win situation. You win, cuz you get 100 hours of twintime at a great rate and advance your career ambitions, and they win, cuz they make some money and keep their business going.

EVERYONE on these forums are so pro-"CFI is the only way to go unless you're military" it's SICK> One day you guys will realize not all people can or want to go the same route.
I figured this response would happen but was still hoping somebody would have done the program and would give some details.. But i AM glad that there are people out there, and in here, who do agree with me