multiengine instrument: dead engine questions

[clumpinglitter]

I'm finding that it's a pain in the ass to deal with a dead engine under the hood. When you're visual, it's natural to just react to the yaw, and I have no problem keeping my heading pegged. But under the hood, it's not quite so easy. I hope this will just get easier with practice?

Do any of you have a rule of thumb for when to start the descent on a single-engine approach? It's not too bad when I know my distance from the MAP, but I'm not counting on the DE letting me use the GPS for this. Timing is almost always inaccurate, and I don't want to get caught too low and too far away from the MAP.

Do you pretty much always leave the gear up until short final, or do you lower it over the FAF like usual? Does it depend on whether the approach is precision or nonprecision?

Do you do the descent to the MAP at blue line? I find that I prefer to descend faster with some power in, because blue line just seems way too slow compared to the normal approach speed.

Not to mention, it's also a pain to track a radial single engine. But that's another issue. I'm flying a Duchess, if that matters.

-C.

 

[momike]

Feline Pine?

 

[gkrangers]

Theres a different answer for each question based on when the engine fails...

Failures under the hood didn't bother me, maybe because me and my MEI did more hood work than visual to start out. Don't know what to tell you there.

As far as descending, if its precision, following the GS.

If its non precision, you'll need to make a judgement call, or atleast thats the way I see it.

On a terminal approach you can probably safely descend following the procedure turn (not all, but many are like this) and 10/10/cleared. However, thats going to make for a long period of time at the MDA far from the runway. Just feel your way through it. If its a GPS approach, I'll typically wait for the FAF before starting my descent, since there is no reason to be 600' AGL over the water 8 miles out. This is going to be different for every approach tho...and is easier when using a GPS.

Landing gear...if I'm already single engine before the FAF, I won't lower the gear just yet. I'll get closer on the ILS, or into the circle to land or nearer the runway on a straight in for non precision.

If my gear is already down and I'm past the FAF when the engine failure occurs, I will probably leave it down as long as the airplane is performing ok. Theres no need to raise the gear and then lower it again a few seconds later when well into an approach.

Blue line or better. If the airplane can do better than blue line on one engine, go for it. If you are diving down to the MDA, you will pick up speed and go above blue line. When you level off, just keep it at blue line or better if you can. The Duchess does an ok job of this IMO, I never had a problem with holding altitude near sea level.

And if you have to circle to land, and you have to turn into the good engine to do so, make sure you give yourself a ton of room to make the turn so you don't overshoot the runway on your checkride like I did...

This is just my opinion and the way I flew when training for the CMEL a few weeks/months ago. Keep in mind that the DE has a lot of discretion when it comes to single engine approach. I flew most of the GPS approach on two engines, and he didn't retard the throttle on one until we were close in and getting ready to circle.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I just checked out your website. Awesome photos.

 

[momike]

I just checked out your website. Awesome photos.

And, unlike so many air hogs, she appears to be pretty doable...

 

[minitour]

...and you have to turn into the good engine to do so...

This is the fourth or fifth time I've heard this recently...starting with training for the MEI.

When I did my CMEL add-on, the examiner told me it was pointless to say always turn into the good engine because there may be terrain, a missed approach course you need to follow, etc. that causes you to turn away from the good engine.

Now, aside from the obvious reasons for turning into the good engine...why does it seem like people are insistant upon either one way or the other?

Opinions? Personal experiences?

-mini

 

[gkrangers]

This is the fourth or fifth time I've heard this recently...starting with training for the MEI.

When I did my CMEL add-on, the examiner told me it was pointless to say always turn into the good engine because there may be terrain, a missed approach course you need to follow, etc. that causes you to turn away from the good engine.

Now, aside from the obvious reasons for turning into the good engine...why does it seem like people are insistant upon either one way or the other?

Opinions? Personal experiences?

-mini

No nono nonononono...you misread me. I was just saying that if you were on a right downwind, and the right engine was running, to make sure you give yourself a lot of room to make the downwind-base-final turn to make sure you don't overshoot.

 

[minitour]

No nono nonononono...you misread me. I was just saying that if you were on a right downwind, and the right engine was running, to make sure you give yourself a lot of room to make the downwind-base-final turn to make sure you don't overshoot.

Gotcha...when you were doing the training, were you slapped for turning away from the good engine, or was it "whatever it takes"?

-mini

 

[gkrangers]

Gotcha...when you were doing the training, were you slapped for turning away from the good engine, or was it "whatever it takes"?

-mini

I don't think my MEIs made a big deal out of it. Make whatever turn you need to make. Thats my 30 hours talking.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I'm finding that it's a pain in the ass to deal with a dead engine under the hood. When you're visual, it's natural to just react to the yaw, and I have no problem keeping my heading pegged. But under the hood, it's not quite so easy. I hope this will just get easier with practice?

Agreeably, it is easier to handle the engine-out by observingthe nose visually. Under the hood you may feel a lot more motion and confusion. With the foogles on, when you begin to feel the plane sway, look directly at the AI. Your first reaction should be to call out (or say to yourself) "WINGS LEVEL - BALL CENTERED." - Use the ailerons to keep the miniature airplane on the AI level and use what ever rudder it takes to keep the ball in the inclinometer centered. When you experience an engine failure, this initial reaction will slow things down and help establish a reference point of more controlled flight. Once you've accomplished this, you can go through the fix or feather routine. You instructor may teach you one method, but here's what I've been taught.

After you've leveled the wings on the AI and centered the ball, you would go ahead and bring the gear up, flaps up, mixture, props and throttle full forward. This should all be done while pitching to, or maintaining Vyse. Once you have cleaned everything up, you'll want to determine which engien has failed, the only reliable way of figuring this out is to see which is the "dead foot". Never rely on power indications. Once you have determined the "dead foot," bring back the appropriate mixture, prop and throttle. DO THIS VERY SLOWLY. Rushing only saves a few seconds and its well worth sacrificing a little time as opposed to pulling the wrong engine.

One other thing, even if you think you know the gear or flaps are up because of the phase of flight you might be in, ALWAYS verify they are in the correct position. This is a routine that should always be followed.

Do any of you have a rule of thumb for when to start the descent on a single-engine approach? It's not too bad when I know my distance from the MAP, but I'm not counting on the DE letting me use the GPS for this. Timing is almost always inaccurate, and I don't want to get caught too low and too far away from the MAP.

As a rule of thumb, if at all possible don't put yourself in a position where you'll need to go around with an engine out. Some basic things to keep in mind are keeping the plane as clean as possible, that means defering things like flaps and gear for as long as possible.

Determining the distance to or arrival at the MAP shouldn't be much different from your instrument training. If you are doing you instrument training along with your ME, then you've got a lot going on.

Timing is not as inaccurate as you think. Amazingly, it does really work. It's never going to be exact, as winds change in speed and direction as you descend. Your IAS may fluctuate as well, durng your pitch excursions while maintaining the glideslope. By the way, your corrections will always be towards the left when descending as the wind shifts left closer to the ground due to the friction. Getting back to timing, you're going to need to estimate your GS based on the IAS you hold along with the average headwind you'll encounter. At any rate, there will be very little variance in timing for MAP arrival if done right.

Do you pretty much always leave the gear up until short final, or do you lower it over the FAF like usual? Does it depend on whether the approach is precision or nonprecision?

When conducting a enging-out precision or non-precision approach, you'll want to leave the flaps up until you've got the runway insight and the landing is assured. Gear should still come down upon GS intercept. On a non-precision, two engine approach, you'' usually drop everything a little earlier before arriving at the FAF.

Do you do the descent to the MAP at blue line? I find that I prefer to descend faster with some power in, because blue line just seems way too slow compared to the normal approach speed.

A litte faster than blueline is fine on the descent to the runway. You should allow yourself a buffer - just don't go below Vmc. Remember, Vmc is greater with a higher power setting and blueline is based on he worst case scenario. On the descent, you'll have a lot less power on the operating engine so there won't be as much yawing. Since some of the yaw is induced by p-factor, p-factor is actually reversed with a nose-low attitude such as during the descent. The yaw encountered will be in the opposite direction or towards the good engine.