Multi-engine training

[BradG]

I am just finishing up my commercial, and i am planning to go to Dallas in mid-March to get my multi-engine. Has anyone ever heard of a company called Multi-Engine Training, based at Redbird that does training in TravelAirs. It is a guaranteed at $795 + $295 for the Checkride. Anyone have any comments on this? I have an opportunity to do the multi in a Dutchess here (KS) for 2x the price of fuel. I dont know which to do. Any ideas would be appreciated

 

[bigD]

I guess it really depends on what you want to do with the rating. I'd imagine that you'd want to build time after you get it. That place in Dallas sounds like a good deal, however don't expect to be able to rent anything in the Kansas area with only the 10 hours or so of twin time that you'd have after finishing the training. You may be able to solo the Travel Airs in Dallas because you got the rating there, but that doesn't do you much good when you live somewhere else.

On the other hand, if you train in the Duchess close to where you live, you might be able to solo the plane right afterwards, or maybe with a minimum amount of additional dual. The school where I rent a Duchess requires 20 hours. That way, you have a twin to fly after you get the rating. And at twice the cost of gas - that's a great deal. I'm chunking out $140 per hour to fly the things!

 

[Wolverine]

I wonder where did you get that information about the school. I have not heard the name like that at Redbird. However, the price range is the "All ATP" (web site: http://www.allatps.com/) operated out of Grand Prairie, Texas. Which is an "Add On" program, not training or teach you anything but get your money. Do some research on this. I've read a lot of bad points about this company on this new message board (and the old one).

Here is some infor about RBD on http://www.airnav.com/airport/KRBD
http://www.flash.net/~lrn2fly/page3.html

If you interest in training in Dallas. Addison (ADS) have few Flight School (Part 141) that doing pretty good in maintenance.
http://www.monarchair.com/ with the price of Beech Duchess
for $165 per hour. Pretty expensive, eh?

Anyway, good luck on searching. If you wanna know about flight school around North Texas. Welcome to send me a private message.

 

[ILLINI]

I got my multi rating at one of those places like the one you're talking about in Dallas. Guranteed rating for $1200 or something like that. My problem was that it was a 6 hour drive from my home and I couldn't rent it after I got the rating. On top of the cost of the rating, I had to pay for a few more hours with an instructor at a local airport for a check out in their twin. Pretty expensive! If you want to build some time after you get the rating, don't make the same mistake I made.... Get your rating at a place nearby and that will let you rent the thing when you are done with your training. Saving a few bucks intially might turn into spending alot more down the line.

 

[Jump Pilot]

I think the guy's name at RBD is Clyde Fredrickson. The number in the Big D yellow pages is 214-330-7811. I know a couple of guys who did there ME there.

You can also try Flightstar and Henley's at ADS. Flightstar has a Baron and Henley's has a Seminole (I've flown both.)

The logic of doing your training where you will rent from is right on. The places at ADS want I believe 10 hours of dual or 10 hours make and model plus 50 ME total before they tun you loose. If you do your training where you will rent, you can at least count your training hours towards those requirements.

Blue skies.

"Why jump out of a perfectly good airplane? You haven't seen our airplane."

 

[avbug]

There are no perfectly good airplanes. Jump them all.

 

[aero99]

I don't know what school in Redbird your looking at, but there is almost always an ad in the paper here for high time MEI's wanted at a school @ Redbird. Might want to make sure the school your looking at there has enough instructors.

Monarch is a good school, good people, descent equipment and easy to get to. Many hotels and resturants in the area and nice area of town. The Beechess is in good shape. I should be flying her down to Austin a few times over the next month or so.

Good luck.

 

[bobbysamd]

Multi rating

The truth of the matter is you probably won't be able to rent ANY multi solo after you get the rating. Insurance is like that.

I'd stay at home and get the rating. You'll save money in the long run. Think about getting your MEI in the same airplane as your initial CFI. Your MEI training will count as multi and multi PIC.

That's my .02. Good luck with your training.

 

[Geigo]

Brad,

I assume the Dutchess your talking about is at KCAC. It's been about a year since I asked about the requirements for rental, but with 300 TT I don't think that you have enough time to take it solo. If your interested I know of someone with a NICE PA-30 you can get your rating in for $135/hr dual/wet. Note it does include the instructor for that price. Also if your trying to build time you can do Angle Flights for something like $110/hr. Like most everywhere else no solo, but a great aircraft at reasonable prices. A two hour drive for a couple weekends would be better than hotel & all in Dallas. If your interested PM me and I'll get you the info.

Geigo

 

[ILLINI]

bobby et al.:

There are a few FBOs that will let you solo their twin with relatively low time. I rented a Dutchess from Luman Air in Aurora, IL (KARR) for $160/hr wet... yeah a little steep if you ask me, but I soloed it with only about 20hrs multi. Anyway when I was there a check out consisted of 1.5-2 hrs with one of their instructors as long as you had I belive 500 TT and 50 multi. If you had less, then they made you go through a 10 hour check out with their instructor. With the instructor it was $190/hr wet which meant almost $2,000 for a check out!

A friend of mine rented an Aztruck from Shaumburg, IL (06C) for I think $130/hr wet. His check out was maybe 1.5 at most with one of their instructors. I don't think they required you to have "X" amount of multi time before they let you solo it either because he only had maybe 30hrs multi when he soloed it.

There are a few places out there that will let you solo their twins with relatively low time, but you may end up paying the premium for it like I did for the additional check out. That is why I say to get your multi and even your MEI from a place that will let you solo it after you've gotten your ratings from them. This is one mistake that i've made that I hope others can learn from!!!

 

[bigD]

Illini's situation is basically the same as mine. The Duchess is $140 an hour. You need 50 hours in type and a regular 1-2 hour checkout, or in lieu of that, 20 hours of dual from the school. I got my rating there, and basically bought the rest of the time up to 20 hours. The other requirements are 300TT and an Instrument rating.

There's also a Baron 58 for rent too, but then you're looking at 50 hours in type with 1000TT and 350 multi. No way around it. So even if I had the 1000 and 350 requirement, which I don't, I'd have to spend over $13K to get that 50 hours (at $265 per hour w/MEI). Ouch! Lots more plane than a Duchess, though.

Oh well, when you're building time, I guess you're not looking to get anywhere fast anyway.

 

[jaybird]

Geigo

How did it go? The interview that is.

 

[bobbysamd]

ILLINI

Very interesting. $160/hour for a twin really isn't out of line at all.

Why rent the Baron when its mins could just about get you hired at a commuter?

Just the same, I know from my experience the places who will rent multis altogether, much less solo, are still few and far between. And, also, you still have to build up the time. Unfortunately, a five-hour multi from Sheble's won't cut it for insurance purposes.

An observation on the above. At schools, MEIs with only a few hours of multi are turned loose with students who have less, or even more time, than the instructors! Compare that with trying to rent a multi and you'll see the irony.

Have a good one and good luck in building multi time.

 

[Captain Over]

The Travelair place has an ad in the back of at least Flying magazine, maybe others. A guy I instruct with went there over Christmas. Got his Multi Comm in something like 4 hour total--including the checkride. He did have some multi logged before he went, but not much--and it was a year since he last flew a twin. Anyway, if you do the math, the ticket cost him something like $250 /hour. Pretty steep, but he got the ticket and it was quick.

Hope this helps.

 

[BradG]

Thanks for all the advice everybody. I think i am going to skip the Dallas thing and do it here in the Dutchess. I have been told by a few people that the examniner in Dallas likes to bust you on your first $300 ride, just so you have to pay again. Sounds kinda fishy to me, plus i would like to get the rating with more than 4 hrs. Anyway, i appreciate the help.

 

[bigD]

Does the thought of a 4 hour Multi-Comm (and I'm assuming instrument) pilot scare anyone besides me?

I dunno about you guys, but I didn't start feeling at home in the Duchess until at least 10 hours. I know there's a wide range of student skill out there, but crap - 4 hours doesn't seem like a lot of time.

I guess the insurance companies agree with me.

 

[bobbysamd]

Low multi training time

I agree, but just a comment. I had an instructor friend at Riddle who did not have his multi. Of course, he wanted into Riddle's gold mine of multi time. So, he went to Sheble's one weekend and came home with his multi. He might have flown four hours max in their Duchess, including checkride. It was a means to an end and very smart, because Riddle upgraded him to MEI on its nickel. So, he got the additional multi training he needed and time in the airplane without having to pay for it. He had to sign a training contract.

Another old aviation adage: Get your ratings on the other guy's nickel.

 

[bigD]

Oh I agree completely Bobby. If I were in your buddy's position, I would have done exactly the same thing. It wasn't my intent to attack anyone who gets their ticket via one of these schools - I was just looking of my situation and thinking, "Man, at 4 hours, I was just finishing my VFR maneuvers and single engine pattern work, let alone all the IFR work." =)

Amazing. And I'd think a Travel Air is more airplane than a Duchess, at least in the sense that it's quite a bit older.

 

[bobbysamd]

Traveler

Sure, it's more airplane. I had a student who had one of his own, although he flew the Riddle Seminoles for his flight courses.

 

[jetdriven]

clyde fredrickson is the instructor and don scott is the examiner. I got my multi and my MEI there. great school. Reality check here, you arent going to build multi time renting twins. it isnt going to happen at 140-250$ per hour.. So just get the rating as cheaply as possible then build it by instructing or riding along with others.
if you fail the ride you get an hour in the travelair again for free, plus the checkride is half for the retake, which makes it out to be 125$. they want you to pass, i had a guy when i did my mei he had 200tt and ZERO multi. passed 1st try. the hampton inn gives you a 40$ room, team up with another guy and you split the room and each get 100$ off the rating. get the rating for the 1000$, dont fall into the trap of 190$ multi time and a hungry instructor who's favorite line is "one more flight and I'll sign you off". BTW i taught two guys in our b55 baron and they got their ratings in less than 5 hours each. it can be done..

 

[bobbysamd]

Multi training

Contrary to popular belief, a multiengine rating isn't that difficult to earn, as long as you apply yourself. The rating is primarily procedures. The general flying is the same as for a single-engine airplane; you just treat the two throttles, prop controls and mixtures as one. The single-engine stuff takes practice after you get past the initial experience of losing one.

There IS some studying involved, to learn the airplane's systems. Spending time in the airplane doing dry time is a great way to help get the procedures down.

I taught my first multi students at Riddle and most seemed to need 15 to 20 hours to be ready for their practicals. I thought that was the norm to earn a multiengine rating. Then, I taught in the same airplane at FSI. Their Private Multi course was ten hours. I didn't believe it could be done in that time, but my students did it. I sincerely believe the difference was that my FSI students applied themselves and did hours of dry time. They had the procedures down and just needed to perfect them in flight. So, it can be done in little time. I'd point out that this was for a Private Multi VFR-only rating.

Good luck with your training.

 

[o2deprived]

Piper Apache Time

Looking into buying a Piper Apache to build some time in and wondered what the airlines would think of the time. The Apache is 150-160 hp per side so it wouldnt qualify for high performance time. Would the lack of high performance be a potential problem when looking for a regional position in the future? Thanks ahead of time.

 

[bigD]

From reading a bunch of the other posts here - I get the impression that multi time is multi time, and the difference between PIC in an Apache won't be that much different than that of a "High Perfomance" twin such as, say, a Seneca.

Maybe there's a difference if you're comparing an Apache to a 402 or something, but for the lighter twins, I doubt it.

 

[bobbysamd]

Apache time

I don't see why it would not qualify as high-performance time. Isn't a high performance aircraft one with more than 200 hp? See FAR 61.31(f). Therefore, your Apache with two engines of 150 hp a side would be 300 hp. That notwithstanding, multi time, for the most part, is multi time and would not be a problem.

Perhaps if you are primarily a Cessna Skymaster driver the commuters may not be overly thrilled with centerline thrust multi. You will have no problem whatsoever, though, if your multi mounts at least one engine per wing.

Hope that helps. Good luck with building your hours.

 

[o2deprived]

multi

Unfortunately the way the reg. reads the airplane must have an engine of more than 200 hp to be high performance. Even though the combined is over that figure there is still no engine in excess of 200 hp on the plane so therefore not high performance. Although the general feeling that I am getting is that I would be given essentially the same credit for Apache time as I would something like a Seneca or the Aztec that I have time in already. Sounds like something I may be able to do. Thanks for the input.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Low performance" twins



This is a new one to me. Seminoles have 180 hp per side. I know of plenty of folks who got all their multi in Seminoles whom the regionals picked up. Except for about 50 hours in B55 Barons, all my time was in Seminoles during the time I interviewed for regional jobs. In my very first interview, the Chief Pilot or whoever he was was very interested in the Seminole emergency gear extension procedure. Moreover, I prepared plenty of airline apps in my time and do not recall one with a time grid that differentiated between single, high-performance single, multi, or high-performance multi. I did encounter one or two that distinguished turbine time from recip. I recall one app, perhaps the United form, that set off centerline thrust from otherwise. Obviously, for the military pilots to whom it was primarily intended.

Bottom line: The airlines want PIC multi. They will analyze how you built the time when it comes time to submit your logbooks. You will have an advantage if you built the time flying for pay. You will have added advantages if a portion was in actual and in scheduled ops.

Once again, best of luck with building the time.