Mountain Flying in Single Engines

[minitour]

What's the difference between flying at 10,000' over flat Kansas prarie, and 10,000 in the rocky mountains?

None. The airplane doesn't know the difference. Neither would you, if you didn't look out the window.

I'm wondering how you'd compare this to your crusade against all single engine IMC flying.

The airpland doesn't know it's IMC...neither would you, if you didn't look out the window. Something tells me you're still going to say that SE IMC should be illegal where SE over mountains is okay.

Where's the difference? Both are a risk...Personally, I'd rather fly here in IMC in a single than over mountains in a single...not saying it isn't "safe" or can't be done, but I'd prefer not to.

-mini

 

[Dr Pokenhiemer]

Hey Avbug,
The issue here is MOUNTAIN FLYING, not just flying at 10,000 feet. There's a HUGE difference as others have pointed out. Usually you have a lot of indepth input that makes me think you are well experienced. Perhaps I was wrong?
A "flat-lander" is taught about high altitude performance and all that good stuff--heck-I used to teach it myself. But to actually experience it first-hand is different. I started flying 20 years ago in western NC. Our tallest mountain in the area is 6000 feet. No big deal-just pop up to 8500 and go. In 2001, I finally flew to New Mexico and mountain flying there is a lot different than mountain flying back home. Near ABQ, you're looking at 12-14000 foot peaks. Can't just climb above those in most light aircraft. Don't believe me? Go try it! The best you can hope for is that some hiker will find you body in the next 30 years during a summer thaw.

 

[avbug]

I spend a fair amount of time in single engine airplanes flying close to the terrain in VERY mountainous areas, generally in weather, with winds, and strong turbulence, updrafts, downdrafts, and rotors. I've taught students there, and grew up there as a kid and a student pilot.

You may not be able to fly over a mountain...so what? You can certainly fly around it. Hence taking road maps and sectionals to find the low spots and plan your flight...something you're required to do no matter where you fly. A pilot is always required to become familiar with ALL details regarding a flight before undertaking it. 14 CFR 91.103. Flying in mountainous terrain (which by definition comprises much of the US) requires no more or less planning than flight in Southern Florida, or Central Kansas.

Do I speak out against single engine IFR? I do. One need not attempt to make a nonsensical comparison between single engine flight in instrument conditions, and flight in mountainous terrain. The two are in no way related. Engine failure in IMC and engine failure in the mountains; in the mountains you always keep a place beneath you to land (and it IS possible if you exercise...come on class, what do we exercise? A MODICUM OF COMMON SENSE!). Engine failure IMC...you guess what you might see when and if you break out.

Single engine instrument failure over the mountains...no big deal at all. Single engine instrument failure IMC...often proves fatal. And on it goes. A ridiculous comparison. All irrelevant to the topic at hand, and introduction and maintenance of irrelevance is something at which minitour excells.

The topic isn't single engine IMC/IFR at all, but training or flight in mountainous terrain. Every flight should be conducted the same, regardless of w(h)eather one is departing Palm Beach Inernational or Aspen. Either you have the performance to go, or you don't. Either you know your departure and know you can make it, and have planned for everything from engine failure to galloping intenstinal cramps, or you don't.

Yes, downdrafts occur...but I've never seen a manual or training guide for the most elementary of students that didn't instruct the student to approach a rigdge at an angle, which gave specific guidance about winds, crossings, and flight around terrain. The Aeronautical Information Manual contains guidance on the topic; adhering to that guidance is ample information to make a safe flight in mountainous terrain.

Conversely, taking a "course" in "mountain flying" doesn't transform one into a died in the wool mountain pilot. I'm all for people seeking instruction where ever they might; seeking training in flight over water, in the hills, in circles around red and white billboards, or in biplanes while wearing plaid can only enhance one's depth of understanding (if one will but make the effort to allow it to do so)...but just the same (here's a minitour-level comparison) as classical guitar training isn't necessary to learn to play the guitar, neither is formal "mountain training" necessary to fly around the hills.

What is necessary is common sense and basic solid airmanship skills and judgement. These basic skills apply no matter where you're flying, or what it is that you're flying.

A pilot looking out the window of his Cessna knows he's in the clouds, and if he's over mountains and in the clear, he knows that too. However, in the clear, he can see the hill, and unless he's highly incompetent and a bloody idiot, can avoid the hill. If hills are sticking up all around him, then he can see them, and avoid them...just like a pilot in florida avoids the massive hazards to aerial navigation that are radio antennaes.

Advice on flying around the hills? Don't hit them. Plan escapes downhill. Carefully plan your performance for the density altitude, just as you always do. If you always don't, then start doing, because you're going to get yourself killed one day if you don't. The weather changes quickly; mountains breed their own weather; watch it, learn it, know it, have alternates. Be willing to not fly, as you would anywhere. Follow roads, carry road maps. File flight plans. Carry survival gear, just as you should no matter where ou fly. Avoid night single engine flight over mountains, just as you should avoid night instrument flight. Use common sense. Remember that you land faster for the same indicated airspeed. Lean. Download. Carry more reserve fuel. Use upslope winds and thermal activity to enhance performance. Cross ridges at an angle.

As for being willing to accept risk; it's an idiotic foolish attitude. Don't accept risk. Find it. Kill it. Eliminate it.

Do you risk hitting a mountain? Not when you realize there's a lot more valley and open space than rock sticking up...regardless of w(h)eather the engine is turning or not, if you need to land, valleys are far preferable than hillsides, cliffs, ridges, outcroppings, or whatever else might be sticking up or attached ot hat's sticking up. Low places are your friend.

The weak airman says that all things contain risk, therefore we must accept it and manage it. The wise airman finds risk and eliminates it by finding another way, leaving open alternatives in routing, destination, departure, load, aircraft, and all other relevant factors to ensure that the risk no longer exists. A hazard is a potential; it becomes a risk when you put it into play. Flight over mountainous terrain is a hazard which is eliminated before it becomes a risk by proper planning, preparation, and execution using the most basic of airmanship skills that are part of the makeup of each student pilot.

If these are not part of the student, the student has been improperly trained. Admitting as much is no shame, but recognition of the fact is part of preparation to make flying under any given conditions safe.

 

[midlifeflyer]

You don't happen to sell mountain flying training do you? Hmmm.

I only teach part time to begin with. I don't even try to make a living at it. But yes, if someone has the "common sense" to realize that there are issues in the mountains that may not have been covered by their training in Florida and asks for mountain instruction, I'll provide it. You may be surprised to learn that some instructors even "sell" instrument training (shocking!) to those who had no need to learn it earlier. Perhaps, even more surprising if I were to fly to the Bahamas, I'd probably at least correspond with a CFI who can give me some knowledge I don't have about the conditions and issues that are specific to flying over long stretches of water.

The "common sense" (an overused and somewhat nonsensical term that has been historically used to justify the most idiotic things) that you talk about has some very different definitions to different people - my definition includes the ability to realize that one does not come into the world knowing everything, that primary flight training tends to be specific to the weather and other conditions that exists in the geographic area in which one trains and that it's usually a good idea to acquire information about different conditions before flying in them and becoming a potential statistic. Your definition is obviously quite different.

 

[bubble]

You guys are killing me with this "only fly in the mountains if you have more than 250 horsepower" and "only in a multi" stuff. Give me a break. I must be doing something extremely risky flying a stock C-150 through the mountains? The way you guys talk I should be dead.

 

[Launchpad]

You guys are killing me with this "only fly in the mountains if you have more than 250 horsepower" and "only in a multi" stuff. Give me a break. I must be doing something extremely risky flying a stock C-150 through the mountains? The way you guys talk I should be dead.

I know, this thread is outta control. Only cross ridges at an angle too, you could die. I'm surprised I haven't head about the "Box Canyon" yet.

 

[avbug]

I'll bite. Tell me about box canyons.

I got a kick out of the folks at telluride who tow gliders with a Cessna 150.

 

[HMR]

I do it for a living in a C206 & C210, and in a BN-2 Islander.

Hmmm... Not many Islanders flying in the U.S. (I used to fly one). Are you based @ KMYL or somewhere in Alaska?

Speaking of KMYL; one of the most highly regarded mountain and canyon flying courses in the world is taught there each summer. Here's the link.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'll bite. Tell me about box canyons.

I got a kick out of the folks at telluride who tow gliders with a Cessna 150.

There's also the 150 or 152 that flies our of Leadville (although I understand it's has a non-stock engine). It never ceases to widen the eyes of pilots who fly there with me.

 

[Launchpad]

The box canyon thing is this... Seems like you always here the story about a plane crashing here or there because of a box canyon. The way that mountains were formed, they are all box canyons. People talk like they sneek up on you from out of no where-

If you read my previous post, always leave yourself an out. Don't fly into something that you can't see the other side or can't make a turn back to where you came from.

You can run the weather pretty hard back in the hills, but flying blindly down a one way street is eventually going to get you.