Most stable carriers and why

[shon7]

Which have been the most stable Airlines in the world and why? LUV definitely comes to mind but what about Lufthansa, BA etc. How have these carriers been able to make it through tough times without massive layoffs and cost cutting?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

FedEx and UPS because boxes do not base their travel decisions on emotion. Okay, you weren't looking for that answer. I see Continental as a stable carrier.

 

[dash8driver]

hugh,

shouldnt you be thinking about lbfms?

 

[Vortilon]

I guess you'd have to define stable, right? Stable over the next 30 years for your career or stable over the last 70+ years of the company's history?

CAL isn't all that stable...they have pilots on furlough right now just like everyone else. They will be in dire straits like every other carrier should there be another significant event of aviation terrorism that affects their cash flow. CAL has been through bankruptcy twice in the last 15 years. While the rest of the majors are getting their time in the troubled-carrier limelight, many other carriers have been there before. Prior to 911 they also had the worst pay & working conditions of any major.....but I guess in the end we'll all have about the same soon!

I'd have to go with SWA as the most stable passenger airline with FEDEX & UPS being the two bright spots of security in the heavy jet pilot profession.

 

[satpak77]

define "stable"

dont know about you but my definition would be profitable, ability to survive a harsh economic environment, and steady customer/revenue base. Also managed well by the top brass.

I would say UPS, FedEx, since corporate America (for that matter "corporate World") will always need to ship things.

Observe that FedEx was started from day 1 as a "air cargo" company and UPS was a trucking company with brown trucks which only later (in the 80s?) incorporated an "air branch" to supplement the trucking side of the house.

PAX wise, I would say Southwest and JBLU, however JBLU benefits from a new workforce (you know any retired JBLU pilots?) and thus has low pension costs. JBLU salaries also are obviously not LUV salaries.

Note that billionaire George Soros (who is not American by birth, he came to USA as an immigrant....go figure) is associated with JBLU. Soros is reputed to turn things into gold when he touches them.

I think we could say CAL is "well run" however unfortunately it has had its own problems post 9-11 and with the economic fallout America suffered. However amongst the majors, one could argue that it is one of the better managed companies out there

my 2 cents

 

[USNFDX]

Mosquitos, rats and humans have historicaly been the most profilic and stable carriers.

 

[Vortilon]

Satpak,

Wouldn't you say its a little early to call JetBlue a stable carrier at which to plan a future? 4-5 years of operations does not make a real history. Many carriers have at one time been new, industry darlings. I remember ValueJet was all the rage until that fateful flight out of Miami. It only takes one crash or a few years of mismanagement to cause gross instability at an airline.

Most all of the current majors have navigated through many tough times and are still here and most will probably still be here regardless of the current LCC groupthink. In many ways they've proven to be survivors and hence, dare I say it, "stable"?. Southwest has proven themselves by being around for 30+ years as well through a proven product and good management.

I guess stability is hard to define in aviation except via the history books.

 

[datafox]

Let's see, Indy Air, ATA, USAir and UAL are the most stable carriers.

It can be a crappy industry, enjoy the ride!

Datafox

 

[Steveair]

Let's see, Indy Air, ATA, USAir and UAL are the most stable carriers.

It can be a crappy industry, enjoy the ride!

Datafox

Airways and UAL are Stable? Yikes... I'd hate to see unstable!

 

[satpak77]

"apparently stable"

...but still unknown

maybe that is better

you have a good point

later

Wouldn't you say its a little early to call JetBlue a stable carrier at which to plan a future? 4-5 years of operations does not make a real history.

 

[bvt1151]

JetBlue stable?

Somebody ask Donald Burr about the stability of a low-fare airline in the New York area with an astronomical growth rate.

 

[furloughfodder]

... however JBLU benefits from a new workforce (you know any retired JBLU pilots?) and thus has low pension costs.

Pension costs? I didn't even know JBLU had a pension plan.

 

[jetblue320]

Pension costs? I didn't even know JBLU had a pension plan.

They don't, by definition of a defined benefit plan. And yes, Jetblue has had three pilots retire to date (to answer the other post) but they were all Age 60 guys.

C yaa

 

[jetblue320]

JetBlue stable?

Somebody ask Donald Burr about the stability of a low-fare airline in the New York area with an astronomical growth rate.

I assume you are talking about People's Express. PE was a whole different animal and although many comparison's have been made to PE & JB most agreed that they were quite different.

C yaaaa

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

The most stable carriers are TWA, Pan Am, Braniff. Oh sorry, I forgot it's 2004. Okay how about United, US Air, Delta, American, Continental, or Northwest. Of I forgot, in bankruptcy, just came out of bankruptcy, may go into bankruptcy, barely averted bankruptcy, has been in bankruptcy twice, still losing money. There's JetBlue which is still in it's infancy and too hard to tell. There's Southwest which seems to be profitable regularly. There's UPS and FedEx which seem to do constitently well too. Forget Kit Darby, if you can invent a business that can use a crystal ball to see 30 years into the future to see which airlines will still be around you'll be a millionaire. I'd be the first to pony up some cash for the information to whom to apply at for a "stable" airline for the rest of my career. Until then it's a bit of analysis and chance, more chance though I believe.

 

[N2264J]

How have these carriers been able to make it through tough times without massive layoffs and cost cutting?

Comair is pretty stable. The most profitable passenger airline in the world when we were bought. 25 years of growth - not one furlough even in the bad times. But now we run up against a scope limit imposed by our ALPA brothers in another pilot group.

It was the business model - we never went after the average passenger although we were happy to carry them as well. Comair catered to the business flyer offering a variety of frequency choices and then charged them a lot of money.
80% of the country's population lives within CL-65 range of Cincinnati. der Seibenburgen used to say: We charge as much as we possibly can, then add $5.

It was a sad, sad day when Delta forced the Comair stockholder out.

 

[English]

I believe Alaska has never furloughed...is that correct? That's stable in my book.

 

[av8instyle]

Alaska furloughs

Actually. Alaska has F'd in the past but mostly driven by the fact that it used to be more of a seasonal airline than it is now. None in the last several years, though.

 

[Frac Daddy]

I agree, but....

FedEx and UPS because boxes do not base their travel decisions on emotion. Okay, you weren't looking for that answer. I see Continental as a stable carrier.

Hugh, I agree with you about FedEx and UPS but for a different reason. I think the reason that they are so stable is that the barriers to entry in their market are very versus the pax carrier.

To start a passenger airline, all you need to do is lease some plane and gates (well, a few other things, too) and you have an airline. LUV started by serving just three cities. Then, if you are doing well, you slowly start to expand. Also, there seems to be no shortage of investors that want to get into this game. God help them.

On the other hand, to compete with FedEx or UPS you have be able to be big right away. You cannot go shippers and say, "We can ship your widgets to your customers as long as they are in Toledo, Detroit or Pittburgh." You have to have a network in place that can get a package form Chico, California to Bangor, Maine overnight. (And offer them standard ground shipping, too). That is what your competition is offering and the cost to build that network is astronomical. I read that Fred Smith poured millions and millions of dollars into building his network before the company became profitable.

But what do I know?

 

[dime line]

N2264J.......The most profitable passenger airline in the world when we were bought. 25 years of growth - not one furlough even in the bad times. ,

No shiat. Profitable because "you" people that are happy to have a job,and will work for BS wages. That is why Comair is profitable.


N2264J........25 years of growth,

Yea because you have a bunch of guys willing to work for nothing for the last 25 years. So of course your going to make money..