More UAL BS

[b737drivr]

A rockier road might be ahead for United

5/6/2005
​

United Airlines may be anything but united next week if the bankruptcy court approves the carrier’s request to dump the contracts of 41,000 mechanics, machinists and flight attendants.



The airline plans to use federal bankruptcy laws when asking the court to void the contracts of the three unions and another--the Railway Labor Act--to force workers to stay on the job.

United has repeatedly said it must further reduce labor costs to successfully recover from bankruptcy. A strike by any of its labor groups could cripple the airline, drive away customers and erode the confidence of financiers needed to provide the money to exit Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection.



Earlier in the week, a number of unions from other carriers said they would strike in sympathy with United workers anger at losing their current pension benefits, potentially causing a domino effect on a large portion of the air transportation industry.



A legal strategy that combines bankruptcy law and the Railway Labor Act in such a manner would be unprecedented, legal scholars say. They also question whether it would fly with the courts.

Back

​

 

[NuGuy]

737...

This is where it gets real, real iffy for all concerned.

There is no question that UAL will move to terminate it's pensions.

It comes down to if UAL management wants to press-to-test. If FAs or Mechs settle, it will be an open door for management to come right back, as they have been doing, for more cuts in the future.

The other question is whether or not UAL management is even interested in a re-negotiated DC/401k plan of some sort, or if they are going to go for all the marbles on the basis that the FAs or Mechs are either bluffing or that they can win in court with a strike injunction.

IMHO, forcing people to work under a contract modified in BQ without recourse to self help won't fly in court, but I've got a long and distingusihed record of being completely wrong.

If the court DOES find that you can impose a contract in BQ without recouse to self-help, labor is totally screwed, not only in the airline industry, but every other as well.

Of course, in the presence of contract abborgation, they could just walk off the job. There's no court in the US that would force you to go to work in an "at-will" situation.

NU

 

[skykid]

There is no question that UAL will move to terminate it's pensions.

The pensions were gone as soon as the ATSB didn't guarantee a loan last Fall. It has taken this long to get the legal process going, but United moved to terminate the pensions last year. I'm glad it is finally coming to a head. I said long ago that what can kill United is United, and whether or not this will happen is finally going to be played out.

It comes down to if UAL management wants to press-to-test.

I disagree 100%. There is no deciding to press to test. UAL mgt has to terminate the pensions even if it means taking a strike and closing the doors. United will not exit ch11 with pensions. That is a fact I have researched myself, and it is obvious - no exit financing with pensions. Not maybe, not a gray area. I don't usually get into name calling, but if anybody really can't see this, they are morons. The pilots came to grips with this months ago and got the best deal they could outside the court. What the mechanics and FAs are deciding on is - strike -- no job, no pension, or - don't strike -- have job, no pension.

Pilots who wont accept the job as it has become are quiting by the dozen, and either getting a different flying job or switching careers. I like that. I don't need a union or a strike vote to tell me what I should think or do about work. That's the way it should be. The irony is pilot pensions will be squeezed by the PBGC turnover many times over what the mechanics and FAs will see.

The other question is whether or not UAL management is even interested in a re-negotiated DC/401k plan of some sort, or if they are going to go for all the marbles on the basis that the FAs or Mechs are either bluffing or that they can win in court with a strike injunction.

No, UAL mgt has been attempting to get these folks to negotiate on a DC/401K replacement for months. It comes down to a questin of logic. I believe some die-hard union folks are caught up in emotion and can't see logic, but it doesn't take much critical thought to see United will not get any exit financing with the pensions.

I'll take it a step further and look at the big picture. Frontier, Airtran, Jetblue, and Southwest don't have defined pensions. Is it the legacies, or some of these companies I just listed that are putting 20% plus more seats/year on the market? Regardless of what happens short term, CAL, UAL, NWA, Delta, and AA are going to give up their pensions if they want to compete this century. You have your head in the sand if you don't see that. See the news in the auto industry this week? Same thing.

This will be interesting to watch! And it is going to be a last stand deal for labor. Trouble is, labor can't win. Strike - lose job AND pension and another big chunk of power. Don't strike, lose pension and another big chunk of power.

 

[Boeingman]

Kid....while what you're saying has some merit, let me ask this. Right now it is the pension issue. What will your response be if UAL wins this particular 1113, and is able to block a strike under the RLA. Do you realize then they can go after any other section of the collective bargaining agreement they desire? Do you honestly believe this will stop at the pension issue?

My point is the ramifications extend far beyond UAL and their pensions. If UAL gets away with this all of us can forget any hope of ever achieveing anything beyond what few crumbs management decides us to feed upon.

This is very serious for all of organized labor.

 

[skykid]

What will your response be if UAL wins this particular 1113, and is able to block a strike under the RLA. Do you realize then they can go after any other section of the collective bargaining agreement they desire? Do you honestly believe this will stop at the pension issue?

I don't think they are going to be able to block a strike. I never said they would be able to block a strike, I did say they will have to TAKE a strike regardless of the outcome. However, to answer your question - my response, should they be able to block a strike, will be amused indifference. I used to be a lot more engaged in this stuff, but I don't rely on this industry for my earnings anymore. I wouldn't let my family be affected by a group of other people who don't have the common sense to know they have no cards to play. And in the end I don't think the FAs or mechanics will strike - posture and bluster. Could be wrong. Did you see where mechanics from other airlines are threatening to strike as well? What a joke. A monkey will fly out my butt before these other groups strike as well.

Do you realize then they can go after any other section of the collective bargaining agreement they desire? Do you honestly believe this will stop at the pension issue?

It became obvious after the ATSB guarantee turn down each union was going to have to take cuts and the pensions would be dumped, or there wasn't going to be any exit financing. Not all the unions negotiated cuts, and in my opinion what the court is about to impose on them is going to be worse than what they could have got outside of court. As far as more cuts beyond what the pilots took, I doubt it. The pension issue has been the biggy, and while a strike over this issue could the end, United is not in as much trouble except for this issue as most on this board hope. Good to discuss with you as always.