More on exit options

[AlbieF15]

Once again, I've been watching some fellow military bros head for the exits these last six months. In no particular order are some random thoughts...

First, when you are applying to the airlines, I'd have 2 or 3 companies in mind and would apply to each of them. A good buddy absolutely wanted only Frontier (due to domicile and lifestyle considerations). After some hard work, networking, and prep he rolled their socks down and got a job offer....6 months out from retirement no less! However, they have now slowed down hiring and it may be over 1 year from his projected retirement date before he can get into class. In his case, he will likely stay on and wait for his "dream" carrier--but not everyone (especially active duty guys) would have that option. I think most of us in the same situation would be more than willing to give our #2 choice a shot--at least for a year. Heck, you might go to another carrier only to find out you actually like it better than what you thought you originally wanted. Anyway, point to this is don't quit networking or applying or considering other options until you are on the property with an ID in your hand!

Second--got a call from a guy 3 weeks from retirement who wanted to work for a cargo outfit. However, his FE written has lapsed. So...in addition to all the countless out processing battles, retirement parties, transitional stresses of leaving the service, he also needs to study the FE materials and go re-take the test. Not that big of deal perhaps but why not knock that out 1 year to 6 months out before life becomes a whirlwind? See "Timing your exit" for my thoughts on that one...

Third--understand the law of large numbers. Hiring is picking up at the LCCs and FedEX and UPS. Each has its own "network" or ways to try to get to the top of the stack. However, even if I hand carry you into to my cheif pilot's office at FDX, I'll need to make an appointment several weeks to a month out. Once your buddy promises to do whatever it takes to get you on the team, and his boss decides he just loves you....you are 1-3 months (minimum) from an interview, and provided that goes well you are likely 4-6 weeks from a class date (you mileage may vary). So...a conservative estimate even if you have "brother in law" helping you is you are 3-5 months from getting on the property. Seems to me with my poor math skills you need to do all the things alluded to in "timing your exit" and be ready to leave 6 months prior to leaving active duty.

Finally, budget. Suits, sims, airline tickets, rental cars....I know it gets expensive and reaching for the wallet gets old. However, 1 or 2 trips at FedEx your second year on the property (likely as an FO or DC10 FE at this rate) will get you back to even in 48 hours. You need to invest in yourself. The military institutionalizes "cheap" at times in how they nickle and dime you when you travel. This is because we serve the taxpayers and whether you are a PFC or a Lt Gen we are governed by the same rules. However, you are a professional that is seeking a professional position--one that pays as much as some executive, medical, or legal positions. However, you need to budget in advance so when your buddy says "I can get you a meeting with xxxx next week" or you want some extra sim prep, etc you can do whatever it takes to be ready for your opportunity.

Good luck everyone. It ain't 1998 out there but if SWA is really going to hire 400 next year and FDX and UPS will hire 300/200, then there is going to be some room for people who really want to be an airline pilot.

 

[FastCargo]

Some thoughts...

To everyone (esp Albie) who has contributed...

Excellent points! I can't emphasize enough, start EARLY! I see so many guys in my current unit who are doing this last minute thing, and it makes me cringe everytime! You have to start early, taking time off for yourself,and spending the money (did the ATP, 737 type rating thing, etc) as you need to.

This sounds kinda dumb (my wife orginally thought I was nuts), but I took one of those desk calendars and put it on the wall. I mean the calendars where each month is the size of a 3' x 2' sheet of paper that you tear off. I placed the WHOLE thing (1 1/2 years) on a wall, laid out and everything. I put in all the important milestones on it (schools, resume prep, scheduled interviews, separation date, etc).

Not only did this allow me to document appointments, etc, but it gave me an instant glance look at how much time I had left. It helped immensely on the motivational level in terms of making sure I kept getting stuff done, esp with a big black mark on everyday that had passed...

It's kinda like route/target/airfield study before you fly. This is much more important...so take that time to recon your objective! And build your own personal checklist to accomplish...with flex time built in (Plan A, B...maybe C).

It got me hired at a couple of places...and I ain't the sharpest tool in the shed...

Good luck!
FastCargo

 

[toonces2]

hey guys,

unfortunately, i'm one of those guys that waited "until the last minute" to get myself back up to speed. i'm working on getting my stuff together, but i'm a bit stuck on how to get from where i am now to where i want to be.

my background: i'm a navy p-3 orion pilot, 1160 tt and 80 pic (bad timing). my last 2 1/2 year tour was in a ground job where i only logged about 50 hours. i'm on terminal leave right now (separating, not retiring) and i have about 5 weeks to separation.

my immediate plans are to get my 1st class, rent a cessna and get current with landings and ifr, and study up for the atp written. i intend to go to the air inc seminar at dfw in january. however, short of buying about 10 hours of cessna time to get back into the game, i'm not really sure what to do next to start getting my hours back up: cfi, airline academy (raa or simcenter?), or just buy a couple hundred hours of time. i'm still looking into the reserves, but that's going to be a while and my package won't be too strong since i've been out of the plane so long.

i know i need to get my resume on the street, but until i have the atp and medical bullets, i'm reluctant to send it out- i need more bullets.

can you guys help me figure out what to do next?

any help/ideas appreciated!
thanks,
mike

 

[MovingTarget]

Punctuation

Well, the first thing you may want to address is the use of capitalization when you post a message, write an email or heaven forbid, a cover letter for a resume.

Your immediate plans are sound. I'd add networking to those. One thing I noticed when I left the service is that it's much easier to get a flying job if you already have a flying job. You may want to grab the first job you can get, no matter how low-paying, just to get that seat. Once you are flying, you will meet pilots and start networking. The network you build will land you a job.

The freight ramp is a good place to find a right seat jet job. Freight outfits have high turnover because some fly crappy equipment, pay low and have bad work hours. Freight stink on your resume will also endear you to some civilian types that will be looking at your resume. Freight is sometimes considered a civilian right of passage like flight instructing.

Good luck and good hunting. You're in for some interesting surprises.

 

[AlbieF15]

You need to go to a regional and build some total time. Yes...it won't be fun for a while but you'll get total time in a hurry. You experience will help you get in the door, and you'll get current (and likely learn a lot of new stuff!) along the way.

Any former mil guys who went to the regionals have some insight?

 

[toonces2]

Thanks for the replies.

I guess I should've been a little more specific in that I'm definately looking at the regionals. This is going to be a long-term process, and a few years at the regionals isn't a problem. In fact, it seems like some of the higher paying regionals wouldn't be a bad career in and of themselves. I'd appreciate some inputs from any military guys that went to the regionals; especially with regards to flight time and currency requirements.

 

[YeOldeProp]

Any chance to pick up a Guard/Reserve position to work on your hours? Sounds like you're getting close to left seat upgrade on the military side (based on time only). Marry that up to your hopeful regional job and you might accelerate your Total time/PIC requirements a bit. Good luck...

 

[Slim]

I never thought I'd hear myself say this...look at Eagle. I know AA hired some very low time military guys years ago. They had a job with ANG/AFRES units, so staying current while on the F/E panel wasn't a problem. AMR likes military pilots!

Eagle has a retention problem with their F/Os. Upgrade time is a minimum of six years. Several of my F/Os at CMR are ex-Eagle. They left as soon as they could following recall. I also know several Eagle F/Os left for ASA.

Given your situation, get current! If you get a job at Eagle, start preparing your resume the moment you finish IOE. When that happens, you'll be a rare commodity...a military pilot with part 121 experience.

The down side is you could get stuck at Eagle.

Good luck...fly safe!

 

[toonces2]

Hey thanks for the advice and encouragement. I'm fortunate that I may have the opportunity to affiliate with a flying reserve unit after all, which will certainly help all around.

Also, thanks to the guys that pm'd me, great advice there.

Let's keep up the dialogue and I hope I see some of you all at DFW next month.

 

[mike_fly_navy]

I guess I should've been a little more specific in that I'm definately looking at the regionals. This is going to be a long-term process, and a few years at the regionals isn't a problem. In fact, it seems like some of the higher paying regionals wouldn't be a bad career in and of themselves. I'd appreciate some inputs from any military guys that went to the regionals; especially with regards to flight time and currency requirements.

I'm a P-3 driver as well and 6 months from getting out. Most of the guys ahead of me are going with the regionals until SWA calls. Seems like 1700 hrs A-time is the going rate WITH a 737 type. A few guys have gone to JetBlue but that was before the flt hour bar got raised. Everyone I know that flies Orions who applied to Am Eagle got hired with no problems. They called me TWO days after I put my online app in. I read on one of these threads about Am Eagle is that upgrading to CAPT is 6 years. One guy out of IOE is getting close to 100 hours on the jet. Pay sucks but it's hours!

I agree with the advice so far. Consider affiliating with VP or VR and fly your a#@ off. Sounds like some airline guys at VP will give you the A-time if they know you're aiming for the airline. I'd also start NETWORKING - call old skippers and IPs for letters of recommendation and start knowing people at the airlines you hope to work for. There's lot of gouge out there. You'll get hired somewhere, hang in there. Just my $0.02

PM me if you need more info. Good luck!

 

[CatfishVT9]

Are there no flying billets in the Navy available? PIC time is what you need to start building.

If you took another Sea Tour, you'd leave with most of your flt hours as PIC right about the time you would START to build PIC in a regional and the pay is way better! I personally would rather do three years at sea than a regional (no offense to regional guys, just pros/cons).

Also, CNATRA converted many billets to TAR. I'm not sure if this is a possibility, but if you can get in there, you could maximize both total time and PIC.

Good luck,
Catfish

 

[toonces2]

Thanks Catfish,
Unfortunately, I'm up for a disassociated boat tour before my DH tour. Also, with the cutbacks in P-3 flight hours, I'd be lucky to get more than 200-400 PIC time; this is over the course of 5 years. This was my major reason for getting out: staying in wasn't going to help me be a more competitive civilian pilot, and my flying days in the Navy were pretty much over. A boat tour doesn't help me with my civilian back up plans either.

I'm optimistic the reserves will work out. Still, there are faster options to PIC time than 5 years in the Navy. I could get my CFI and log 100 hours of PIC time in less than a year I'd bet.

Please see my other thread about PIC time too.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Phrogboy]

Ohhhhhh.... Regionals or boat, Regionals or boat- Beer almost every night (even if I can't afford it) or stateroom with 3 other smelly guys with occasional binge drinking in far off lands while not being able to fly at all. Sorry Catfish, but that one was an easy choice. I do have to say that there are times I miss being out to sea, but no way, no how could I go out and not be able to fly away from it all occasionally.

Mike, good luck brother. Did you end up getting a VR position in DFW? That woud be a SWEET position from what I have heard. If not, you could always look into a reserve position as an IP in Pensacola or Corpus. You have the experience it takes, it's a great way to build time, and you can adjust it to your schedule for the most part. I do not know if they are looking for anyone now, but it is worth a try. And, you can still do the regional thing or just be a reserve bum and still make a decent living. Also, if you have not thought about it, using your VA/GI bill for your CFI is a great way to build time and pad your qualifications.

 

[srjorion]

If not, you could always look into a reserve position as an IP in Pensacola or Corpus. You have the experience it takes, it's a great way to build time, and you can adjust it to your schedule for the most part. I do not know if they are looking for anyone now, but it is worth a try.

The last board for those spots was two weeks ago. They have boards once a quarter. It is very, very competetive though. I'm sure it's not impossible, but if you aren't currently flying with one of the training squadrons it would be extremely tough to get a slot. Here's a link to the official info here.

 

[toonces2]

Hey guys,

When I mentioned DFW, I meant I'm planning on going the the AirInc job fair there in Jan. Hopefully I'll see some familiar faces.

As for the reserves, I only have one place I'm putting in a package- one of the VP squadrons. I already have a non-flying billet in the squadron to start next month, and I can't really move around the country looking for reserve work. Hopefully I'll get picked up to fly, be even if not, maybe I can get some stick time/sim time anyway. I have many back up plans besides flying for the airlines in case this all doesn't work out.

Thanks for the idea though- flying T-34's or JPATS would be unreal fun. Unfortunately it didn't work out for me.

 

[tubelo]

AC vs PIC. Different airlines look at PIC differently. Some only consider Aircraft Commander time as PIC (Part 1 definition), but some allow the Part 61 definition, which in your case First Pilot (once NATOPS Qualed) also counts as PIC. Be able to present it both ways and explain any numbers you use. Most Majors specifically state it must be A time, but not all Regionals do.

 

[LJDRVR]

Take a good look at Express Jet. We make over 100 million a year in operating profit, about a 2-year upgrade, (maybe) and if you end up here as a career, the culture is outstanding and the flying is superb.

I'll second what others have said about attempting to keep a hand in the military side of things. In this industry, it is critical that you have either a second skillset or another flying job. In the case of a reserve or guard unit, you're protected in the event the airlines tank again, and if they don't you're building PIC time.

Drop me a line if you have any XJT questions. We have all kinds of ex-mil here, from E-6 NFO's to retired 0-6 Phantom dudes E-3 pilots & goats, airborne rangers, navy helo guys, retired T-6 IP's, Army tank commanders, you name it.

We fly from as far south as Acupulco, to Los Angeles, to Boise, to Hallifax to Bermuda with a lot of stuff in between. The Embraear is an easy, fun jet to fly.

Drop me a line if I can help you out at all.

 

[Resume Writer]

I concur with LJDrvr. Why would you go to Eagle and be an FO for 6 years, gaining no PIC time? I think it puts you in the same boat as you are now.

There are many regionals out there with an upgrade time of less than 6 years. XJT is one of them; Mesa is probably another. I have some friends at Skywest that upgraded in about three years. Do some more research on the many regionals that are out there. Freight is also an option, and you will likely gain PIC time as many of them are single pilot ops.

I really like the calendar plan that someone else posted. It really puts it right in front of you. As Albie said, it can get expensive footing the bill for SIM time, suits, airline flights, etc. The typical hiring process takes about 4-6 weeks with interviews, hiring boards, background checks, etc. I think the six month timeframe that Albie posted is right on the mark.

Great information on this thread!

Kathy

 

[Full of LUV]

Hey guys,

When I mentioned DFW, I meant I'm planning on going the the AirInc job fair there in Jan. Hopefully I'll see some familiar faces.

As for the reserves, I only have one place I'm putting in a package- one of the VP squadrons. I already have a non-flying billet in the squadron to start next month, and I can't really move around the country looking for reserve work. Hopefully I'll get picked up to fly, be even if not, maybe I can get some stick time/sim time anyway. I have many back up plans besides flying for the airlines in case this all doesn't work out.

Thanks for the idea though- flying T-34's or JPATS would be unreal fun. Unfortunately it didn't work out for me.

Toonces,
I don't know where you actually live or plan on living, but I am a VR guy and you should consider applying to a VR C130 unit in either Brunswick, DC, New Orleans, or Pt Magu as they really value ANY multi enging prop experience (PIC or not) as the fleet is obviously not making any C130 pilots anymore. There boards seem to be a little less "crowded" than some of the other units. Also, the G-IV unit in Hawaii is often shortchanged for applicants due to its remote location. All of these units would offer mucho employment (much better than a regional pay wise) with more time off and a rapid upgrade (probably on the order of one year) where you will be well utilized as a PIC. Most unemployed reservists can log near 400 hours annually for the jet guys and probably up to 500 hours for the c130 guys. PM me if you have any other questions.

Happy New Year!

 

[psysicx]

Also check out the C-9 unit at NASNI they are switching to the C-40,and there is the C-40 unit at Fort Worth.