More about logging time at UPT

[Cruise157]

I've read that you can log your flying time at UPT in a civilian logbook if you are AMEL rated. But since you're flying a turbine engine, wouldn't you need a type certificate for the aircraft as well?

 

[AlbieF15]

Log all time dual as "dual given" and do not count it in PIC.

All solo time is PIC. If you ain't the PIC then, who is?

FYI....most majors I applied to specifically said to omit student time. UPAS app has separate column for student. However...you MIGHT have a case for using the solo PIC time in your computations down the road.

If you are going active duty...you've got 8-9 years to worry about airline or other careers. Log your time, but keep focused on daily progress and on getting your wings...the rest of the stuff will take care of itself down the road. And have fun....UPT was about the most fun 365 consecutive day period of my life.

Fly safe,

Albie

 

[Slyny]

I've debated this topic with several IPs and mostly the consensus is to keep the mil time separate. Later on if you go to an interview for an airline you can simply bring your AFORMS printout. The company will use a mulitiplier (i.e. 1.2 or 1.3X) to calculate your time. Also, they will recognize the AFORMS printout as an official document, and won't have any reason to scrutinize like they could in your civilian logbook.

I have thought about buying a separate military logbook to record the time as a backup to AFORMS though.

Scott

 

[AlbieF15]

See a previous post with Mud Eagle on the same subject.

The time you log in the logbook is the same time you log in the 781. There is no need to add "taxi time" or other conversion factors in your log. Civilian entries have hobbs time, military entries have block (781) time.

During my FedEx and JetBlue interviews, guys seem to appreciate the fact there was a unique mix of civilian and military flying interspersed in my logs. I think it demonstrated a sincere love of aviation, and also the fact my background was multi-dimensional.

Most "IPs" haven't had an airline interview yet. The typical FAIP is 5-7 years from an airline interview. He/she is also still young enough to have a good recollection of interesting flights. That changes as you get older...

The reason you want to log your military time is twofold. First--your 781 goes through flight ops at your squadron, into a computer, and then is in the database. Mistakes can happen and flights get missed. Having a civilian backup to your mil records is good insurance.

Second--fill out the remarks section. This will help you down the road when you want a "tell me about a time" story for an interview, but even more important it is a great historical record and memory jogger when you get old & fat & gray (like me) and you go back and can remember some neat details about specific missions. My advice--if you fly fighters...names of the formation mates and some brief info. You will treasure those memories for years.

Some examples--I have several entries mentioning flights I flew with some now gone buddies. One UPT buddy died of cancer in 1994, and another hit a mountain in an F15 last March.

First crossing of the Pacific. First crossing of the Atlantic. Names of everyone in the formation at the time. Some great sorties at Red Flag, Cope Thunder, and NATO exercises. So not so great days when I was getting my brains gunned out in MQT and then again in IPUG.

First Peacekeeping mission. First day someone shot a SAM at our package.

Read this month's FLYING article by Lane ??......she mentions the neat memories a logbook can bring out. Its a good read.

Don't waste your youth turning your log into a job hunting document--put some heart and soul into it as well. The airline job (if that's what you want) will eventually come, but the memories in your logbook you will treasure for the rest of your life.

My two cents, anyway...

Albie

 

[Bill Mostellar]

AFORMS Check

The reason you want to log your military time is twofold. First--your 781 goes through flight ops at your squadron, into a computer, and then is in the database...

Albie is spot-on.

AFORMS only stores the sortie information for 12 or 13 months. Once a year (let's say January), get a printout and compare it to your personal logbook (did I mention how nice some of the computer software is or set up something in Excel or DBase).

When you find a problem, AFORMS will gladly correct.

Albie also mentions entering remarks for each sortie. I listed the other pilots in a separate column than the remarks. I can now sort by that field and recall all the times I flew with someone. The remarks are always fun to read and provided some great interview fodder.

I wish you success!

 

[Draginass]

AlbieF15 is right. All you military guys ought to pay VERY close attention to your 781s, especially periodic reviews. You should also maintain a civil log book. If you do that, when/if you apply to the airlines, figuring out you time will be easy. If not, then you're going to spend several agonizing days trying to make sense of your 781.

Why pay attention to your 781s?? Well, when I retired from the USAF, careful review of my flight records revealed that an entire YEAR of my flying had been dropped (back in the mid 80s, 400 hours of prime IP time in heavy jets). Luckily I had my civil log and the flight records NCOs reconstructed the time.

Also, SAVE your yearly printouts for future proof, should Airman Smedly in flight records dump the data base on you.

It's easy to keep good records now and save yourself a lot of trouble later.

 

[Slyny]

Excellent advice--thanks guys. Once I finish up with UPT I'm going to sit down and log the time in my book, and keep it up to date and accurate. I appreciate your perspectives.

Scott

 

[SentryIP]

Logbook

Slyny,

Lots of good advice on previous posts. Here's my $0.02. Buy a "Senior Pilot Logbook" from Sporty's Pilot Shop or another similar logbook instead of a "Student Logbook" and do the following:

1. Log UPT time as Dual Received
2. Log PIC when you're solo
3. Maintain one logbook!
4. Log Part 1 PIC (when you upgrade to Aircraft Commander)
5. Log Part 61 PIC (Copilot, First Pilot or Student Solo)
6. Be sure to read and understand 14 CFR Part 61.51
7. Log actual/simulated instrument time (see #6 above)
8. Start logging you're time sooner than later!

AFORMS is a database and there can/will be errors. This happend to me a couple of times and having an up-to-date logbook helped to correct the errors. Fly safe. UPT will be the best time of your life!

 

[SuperDavi8ator]

Just an example of AFORMS errors. My all time favorite Logbook entry was the 91 hours of nite flying time I logged on one sortie (1.3hr sortie durration). I caught the error in the monthly printout but didn't say a word. Wasn't removed by the flight records folks for 6 months.

Keep a Logbook, I now wish I would have.

 

[xrjpilot]

I'm in the same boat as far as UPT and flight time. If got a Senior pilot's flight log with about 2000 hrs of civilian time in it. I'll be going to UPT this summer from the 111th FW PA ANG. Should I continue to use the same logbook or get a new one just for the Mil flying?

Thanks in advance

 

[Draginass]

xrjpilot -
Go ahead and keep you mil time in your logbook. In the remarks section, make notes of significant items such as IFEs, low vis landings, etc. These will be good memory joggers for furture airline interview stories/experiences. However, SAVE the flying time review summaries (as a minimum). Check them for general agreement with you logbook when you get them. When you leave the USAF, they'll give you your flight records folder and a detailed summary of your total military flying time. When you go for an airline interview, that flying time summary is golden. Your interviewer will have no doubts about the validity of it (and it can be/may be checked with a phone call). Some dishonest pilot fake civil time and interviewers know it, but mil 781s have solid believability.

This stuff sounds complicated and tedious, but it's not. Waiting till you're retired with 20 years of flying to reconstruct IS.

The following website used to have some good advice on how to log military time IAW the FAA. I haven't checked it recently, however. "Doc" seems to know what he's talking about however.

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/

 

[SentryIP]

Flight Time Is Flight Time

xrjpilot,

I haven't done very much civilian flying, but I've kept all my 20+ years of flight time in one logbook. It's worked out well and easier for someone (interviewer) to view your flying career chronologically. Best wishes.

 

[xhercdriver]

The only thing I have to add to this is to be somewhat "conservative" in your logging of time, and perhaps start looking even now at the way the different airlines expect you to assign that time on their applications. It may be "technically correct" that your T-38 solo time is "turbine PIC," but you don't really want to be in the position of having to argue that point at your interview.

Better to be able to say, "Here's 25 hours of solo time in jets at UPT," and have that recorded separately from the other PIC jet time you've got, rather than just saying "I've got 1503 hours" of PIC jet, and then having them ferret out that some of it was before you even had your wings. The airline rules and the FAA rules for what "counts" are two different things.

Some of the airlines will let you record student time on the app, but others don't want any time prior to the time you became a "licensed" pilot (or got your military wings). Also, you're going to go through a number of schools where you might be able "technically" to log PIC or SIC, but if you're in fact getting checked out in the airplane and an instructor is actually signing for the jet, it really ain't your PIC time, as far as the airline is concerned. So keep track of the time spent in "student status" when you change airplanes, because chances are one of the interviewers knows the military system and may expect you to be able to tell him how many of your hours were "upgrade time." A lot better if you're not pointing at the PIC column when you answer that one

Unless you fly fighters, chances are you'll meet all the mininums for all the majors when you're first eligible to leave the service. Categorize your time so that there is no doubt what your actual status was on each flight. That will make it a lot easier to tally up after 10 years, and a lot easier to explain. And do NOT forget to track all your actual and simulated instrument and night time. AF pilots are notorious for forgetting to log this on the 781, and the AFORMS folks usually won't catch it.

 

[rcb]

PIC AMEL: Yes Type, probably not

If you have an AMEL, you can log it as PIC, IMHO. I don't think there is a 'type' for the Tweet, since it's military only. Other than the 'experimental' licensed ones. The FAR FAQ I have mentioned here before makes specific mention of an S-3 Viking in this regard. There is no civilian type for it, so an NFO with an AMEL can log PIC 'sole manipulator' at least.

PIC of record, I guess not but PIC as far as the FAA is concerned, I don't see why not.

The big thing to get out of this, is that a type rating is not required if there is no type rating to be had, such as an S-3 Viking. Not all military planes are type rating-less of course, the E-3 is a B720 I think. I'd have to look in my logbook.

 

[xrjpilot]

FAA visit to UPT

I've been told that the FAA comes in and does paperwork for the UPT grads for Comm. MEL centerline thrust. True/ Not true, You former IPs would know.

Here's my question. Right now I am eligible to get my ATP. I have all the required time, but not the money to get it. Will the FAA sign off on my ATP after I graduate from UPT, assuming I've passed the written?

Thanks