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More about logging time at UPT

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Dec 6, 2001
I've read that you can log your flying time at UPT in a civilian logbook if you are AMEL rated. But since you're flying a turbine engine, wouldn't you need a type certificate for the aircraft as well?
Log all time dual as "dual given" and do not count it in PIC.

All solo time is PIC. If you ain't the PIC then, who is?

FYI....most majors I applied to specifically said to omit student time. UPAS app has separate column for student. However...you MIGHT have a case for using the solo PIC time in your computations down the road.

If you are going active duty...you've got 8-9 years to worry about airline or other careers. Log your time, but keep focused on daily progress and on getting your wings...the rest of the stuff will take care of itself down the road. And have fun....UPT was about the most fun 365 consecutive day period of my life.

Fly safe,

I've debated this topic with several IPs and mostly the consensus is to keep the mil time separate. Later on if you go to an interview for an airline you can simply bring your AFORMS printout. The company will use a mulitiplier (i.e. 1.2 or 1.3X) to calculate your time. Also, they will recognize the AFORMS printout as an official document, and won't have any reason to scrutinize like they could in your civilian logbook.

I have thought about buying a separate military logbook to record the time as a backup to AFORMS though.

See a previous post with Mud Eagle on the same subject.

The time you log in the logbook is the same time you log in the 781. There is no need to add "taxi time" or other conversion factors in your log. Civilian entries have hobbs time, military entries have block (781) time.

During my FedEx and JetBlue interviews, guys seem to appreciate the fact there was a unique mix of civilian and military flying interspersed in my logs. I think it demonstrated a sincere love of aviation, and also the fact my background was multi-dimensional.

Most "IPs" haven't had an airline interview yet. The typical FAIP is 5-7 years from an airline interview. He/she is also still young enough to have a good recollection of interesting flights. That changes as you get older...

The reason you want to log your military time is twofold. First--your 781 goes through flight ops at your squadron, into a computer, and then is in the database. Mistakes can happen and flights get missed. Having a civilian backup to your mil records is good insurance.

Second--fill out the remarks section. This will help you down the road when you want a "tell me about a time" story for an interview, but even more important it is a great historical record and memory jogger when you get old & fat & gray (like me) and you go back and can remember some neat details about specific missions. My advice--if you fly fighters...names of the formation mates and some brief info. You will treasure those memories for years.

Some examples--I have several entries mentioning flights I flew with some now gone buddies. One UPT buddy died of cancer in 1994, and another hit a mountain in an F15 last March.

First crossing of the Pacific. First crossing of the Atlantic. Names of everyone in the formation at the time. Some great sorties at Red Flag, Cope Thunder, and NATO exercises. So not so great days when I was getting my brains gunned out in MQT and then again in IPUG.

First Peacekeeping mission. First day someone shot a SAM at our package.

Read this month's FLYING article by Lane ??......she mentions the neat memories a logbook can bring out. Its a good read.

Don't waste your youth turning your log into a job hunting document--put some heart and soul into it as well. The airline job (if that's what you want) will eventually come, but the memories in your logbook you will treasure for the rest of your life.

My two cents, anyway...


AlbieF15 said:
The reason you want to log your military time is twofold. First--your 781 goes through flight ops at your squadron, into a computer, and then is in the database...

Albie is spot-on.

AFORMS only stores the sortie information for 12 or 13 months. Once a year (let's say January), get a printout and compare it to your personal logbook (did I mention how nice some of the computer software is or set up something in Excel or DBase).

When you find a problem, AFORMS will gladly correct.

Albie also mentions entering remarks for each sortie. I listed the other pilots in a separate column than the remarks. I can now sort by that field and recall all the times I flew with someone. The remarks are always fun to read and provided some great interview fodder.

I wish you success!
AlbieF15 is right. All you military guys ought to pay VERY close attention to your 781s, especially periodic reviews. You should also maintain a civil log book. If you do that, when/if you apply to the airlines, figuring out you time will be easy. If not, then you're going to spend several agonizing days trying to make sense of your 781.

Why pay attention to your 781s?? Well, when I retired from the USAF, careful review of my flight records revealed that an entire YEAR of my flying had been dropped (back in the mid 80s, 400 hours of prime IP time in heavy jets). Luckily I had my civil log and the flight records NCOs reconstructed the time.

Also, SAVE your yearly printouts for future proof, should Airman Smedly in flight records dump the data base on you.

It's easy to keep good records now and save yourself a lot of trouble later.
Excellent advice--thanks guys. Once I finish up with UPT I'm going to sit down and log the time in my book, and keep it up to date and accurate. I appreciate your perspectives.



Lots of good advice on previous posts. Here's my $0.02. Buy a "Senior Pilot Logbook" from Sporty's Pilot Shop or another similar logbook instead of a "Student Logbook" and do the following:

1. Log UPT time as Dual Received
2. Log PIC when you're solo
3. Maintain one logbook!
4. Log Part 1 PIC (when you upgrade to Aircraft Commander)
5. Log Part 61 PIC (Copilot, First Pilot or Student Solo)
6. Be sure to read and understand 14 CFR Part 61.51
7. Log actual/simulated instrument time (see #6 above)
8. Start logging you're time sooner than later!

AFORMS is a database and there can/will be errors. This happend to me a couple of times and having an up-to-date logbook helped to correct the errors. Fly safe. UPT will be the best time of your life! :cool:
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Just an example of AFORMS errors. My all time favorite Logbook entry was the 91 hours of nite flying time I logged on one sortie (1.3hr sortie durration). I caught the error in the monthly printout but didn't say a word. Wasn't removed by the flight records folks for 6 months.

Keep a Logbook, I now wish I would have.
I'm in the same boat as far as UPT and flight time. If got a Senior pilot's flight log with about 2000 hrs of civilian time in it. I'll be going to UPT this summer from the 111th FW PA ANG. Should I continue to use the same logbook or get a new one just for the Mil flying?

Thanks in advance

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