Minimum time that insurance requires for SIC?

Kingair1181

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I recently finished training for my CMEL/CSEL and have been starting to work towards my CFI and CFII. However, a family member, who is high up for a large corporation, asked me to fax him a copy of my resume. He assured me that he could get me a job flying right seat in one of their company jets. Several fellow pilots have told me that I probably won’t meet the insurance requirements as far as flight time goes (approx. 400 hrs of TT, which 220ish is multi/complex).



My question is what are the minimum flight times and requirements that insurance companies want you to have to fly as an SIC? Can a company simply pay a higher premium to cover a low time pilot? Anything else that I should be aware of or ask about?



Thanks.
 

EatSleepFly

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If it's part 91, almost anyone can get insured (within reason) it seems. 135 seems to be a different story.

I know a few lucky SOB's who got F/O jobs flying jets part 91- everything from a bigger Citation to a GIV- with about your total time or not much more.

It's all about networking and luck, and you have at least one of the two!
 

HMR

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Depending on the size of the dept. and type of A/C, the insurance mins can be very flexible. Lots of guys have gotten jobs by having relatives on the "inside".

PS-Everyone will hate you but at least you'll have a sweet gig!;)
 

2000flyer

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It all depends on what the company wants to pay in premiums. Just like other insurances, the less experience the more the premium. Operators used to have considerable leverage with insurance companies, but in the last few years those roles have reversed.

Some insurance companies are requiring SIC's to go through a full initial at an "approved" (read FSI or SimuFlite) training. My first jet job I did 3 TO/LDG and attended a recurrent 3 months later. We wouldn't be able to do that now.

2000Flyer
 

Capt1124

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We have always had low time FOs and the last time I submitted an applicant the underwriter was very uncooperative. "Open Pilot" for SIC is 2500 TT, 1500 ME, 100 ME Jet, 25 make and model. That seems to be excessive to me. 1500 total and 300 multi would seem to be good to me.

I don't really know how they make the decision. If you can get insured with those times let me know the underwriter.
 

Yesiflyhogs

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Incredibly, a couple of the big carriers (I hate to name names) name little to no requirements for even the PIC (beyond the minimum required by the FAA). On 2 different policies I looked at recently (including a widebody bizjet), in the 'Approved Pilots' section it stated simply 'as designated by the Chief Pilot'. I fly in a large department that (knock on wood) hasn't bent any metal in a long time. That seems to play a heavy role in the specific requirements. You didn't mention aircraft type, but if we are talking straight wing Citation, your definitely good as long as you can actually fly.
 

Kingair1181

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The underwriter is actually what I am worried about. Albeit they are a good sized company, they have a small fleet (not sure exactly but I'd venture to say maybe 2 or 3 aircraft). Personally, I am not excepting to get a call back saying they'd like to hire me, because it all seems too good to be true, but hey - one can hope right? From what I have been told by my uncle (the family member), unless the cost of insurance is through the roof, they will cover me, but there seems to be a chance, perhaps even a good chance from what I have read, that their insurance simply won't cover a pilot with my time. I have also been told by some friends that 500 hrs is a magical #, and that if I am 100 hrs short of it I am not sure if I should just spend the money and buy my hours or invest about an equal amount of money, become a CFI, teach for a while, then go back when I have the time.

Thoughts? Thanks again for the help.
 

Lead Sled

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I have seen the minimums listed in 3 different ways: 1. Fixed minimums, 2. Named pilots, and 3."As determined by chief pilot"

Currently we are flying under "named pilots"; however, our open pilot warranty for PIC requires 3500 total logged flying hours, 2000 hours ME, 1000 hours turbine, and 100 hours make and model and FlightSafety within the preceding 12 months.

The open pilot warranty for SIC is 3000 total logged flying hours, 1500 hours ME and 50 hours make and model and FlightSafety within the preceding 12 months.

I could have probably negotiated lower minimums had I have felt the need, but there are plenty of contract pilots out there who meet those minimums should the need arise.

Granted there are policies that state "as determined by chief pilot", but the underwriter is assuming that the chief pilot will use some disgression in what he determines to be appropriate experience. If he/she starts using a lot low-time inexperienced guys he can expect to see that reflected in the premium come renewal time. I've worked for several companies that had that clause in their policy. They also had company manuals/departmental policies that listed minimum times and experience levels. The insurance comany was just allowing the chief pilot some flexibility.

FWIW (and it's just my personal opinion) don't be in too big a rush to get yourself into the right seat of a jet. Invest the time in your future to learn how to fly. And I'm not talking merely manipulating the controls. Take a job or two where you really learn how to fly in weather and how to use the system. Chief pilots like guys who have been "around the block" a time or two.

'Sled
 

ultrarunner

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We use named pilots and also have an 'open' pilot exclusion. If I recall, our open pilot SIC reqirements are:

2500 TT, 1500 ME, 100 ME Jet, 25 make and model. AND simulator-based training within the previous 12 months.

We carry 100 mil liab. on a new, medium sized jet.

I think this is pretty standard with USAIG. AIG was a bit more forgiving, but at the expense of a higher premium.
 

T-REX

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The policies "at discretion of chief pilot" is used at many large 91/135 flight departments. Usually every year each pilot will get a survey to fill in their total time, time in type, medical, education, driving history,...... The underwriter then uses this info. to determine/negotiate a premium for the year.
Congrats on opportunity, what kind of equip. do they fly?
 

SabreFlyR

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T-REX said:
The policies "at discretion of chief pilot" is used at many large 91/135 flight departments. Usually every year each pilot will get a survey to fill in their total time, time in type, medical, education, driving history,...... The underwriter then uses this info. to determine/negotiate a premium for the year.
Congrats on opportunity, what kind of equip. do they fly?

We are hardly a large department, 1 plane and 2 pilots, but I have and have had for sometime the "any pilot designated by the chief pilot" authority. Of course I have a good history with the agent and the underwriter.
 

h25b

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Be very careful about going down this path...

Make sure you have enough experience and the ability to perform well if hired. A lot of Chief Pilots hate it when a person gets "shoved down their throats." If the Chief Pilot accepts you when he'd rather have someone else more experienced your life could be miserable... To add to that, you can bet that the pilots already there have their own buddys they are trying to get on and when you come along with 400 hrs. after some friend of theirs had been shot down with 6000 tt you will not be too popular.

My two cents and yes, I have seen this happen...

Remember that the personnel dynamics of a flight department are as important as pay, benefits, etc... They don't want anyone to come in and screw it up as well as you don't want to be the one that comes in and screws it up.
 
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HawkerF/O

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These guys are right, it's all about the underwriter. It sounds like your guys are letting the broker get away with being lazy. I used to think the same way until a good friend of mine got in the av-insurance business, then the learning began. When a pilot tells you his insuranece won't allow him to hire you, that is a lie, or, his broker should be fired. The broker works for you, and should not tell you who you can and cannot hire. The relationship the broker has with the underwriter is the key. If your broker just faxes over your times and waits for a response, then no, you will not get hired. But if the broker calls the underwriter and says hey look, I know the chief pilot, he has been a customer of ours for years, and he wants this guy on board. What can we do? If the broker has any type of relationship with the underwriter, then you have a new job. A few years ago I was flying a medium sized jet and the company I worked for also had a large cabin airplane. I got called into the CEO's office one day and was asked why I was not flying their larger aircraft. (They hated the CP and always called the other pilots directly when they wanted something) I told them the insurance company told me I did not meet the mins, and I was then told to try again and do what I needed to do. I didn't know anything about av-insurance at the time, so I called our broker, NationAir, and asked for our broker, Tesa Hartman. She was not in, and I told the secretary what I wanted and she said fax in your times, ect and they would get back to me in a couple of days. Well, they didnt and so after 4 days of hearing nothing from them, I called everyday for the next 2 weeks only to get the run around. I finally got Tesa Hartman and she said no, it was hard enough to get me insured on the other aircraft and the underwriter said no. A few months after that my friend got into the av-insurance business and I told him what had happened, and he said she didnt even send in your info. I talked my comapny into switching brokers at renewal time, and sure enough, I got approved for the larger aircraft the same day we switched. How you ask? After being in the av-insurance business for less than 2 months, he picked up the phone and called the underwriter. I was sitting in his office listening on speaker phone when it happened. So, don't let someone give you the run around, and stay away from Nationair and Tesa Hartman, as they'll take your premiums and then sit on their A@@.
 

G100driver

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Lead Sled said:
FWIW (and it's just my personal opinion) don't be in too big a rush to get yourself into the right seat of a jet. Invest the time in your future to learn how to fly. And I'm not talking merely manipulating the controls. Take a job or two where you really learn how to fly in weather and how to use the system. Chief pilots like guys who have been "around the block" a time or two.

'Sled

Sled is right on the money with this one. I did not realize how little I know about flying and controling an airplane until I started flight instructing. I feel pretty qualified to say this as when I worked line service before I got my CFI I also flew in the right seat of jets and a turbo commanders. It was nice and cool but my skills were atrophying <sp> as I did not fly many legs. All the legs were live so I was not allowed to "practice" with pax. Take the time to get 1000 hours or so of dual. You will be a better pilot for it and you will have the respect of your follow pilots within your flight department.

Good luck.
 

westwind driver

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Well gee. Our department must be a fluke or has fallin through the cracks. I just looked over our policy yesterday.

While we do have minimum times for non-schooled SIC's, there are no minimum times listed for those with Manufacture Schooled SIC's.

Our "open pilot" states (loosely verbatim) that the SIC have attended an approved Manufacturer's School within the preceeding 12 months, OR have 2000 TT, 1000 ME, 250 MEJ, 100 make/model.

We use Accordia, have $100M liability blah blah.

I was once told the chief pilot is good friends with the underwriter, so maybe this has some bearing on it???

Dunno, guess it all depends on the aircraft and operator.
 

Lead Sled

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westwind driver said:
Our department must be a fluke or has fallin through the cracks. I just looked over our policy yesterday. I was once told the chief pilot is good friends with the underwriter, so maybe this has some bearing on it? Dunno, guess it all depends on the aircraft and operator.
Nope, it doesn't depend upon the aircraft or operator - totally. It really all depends upon what you are able to negotiate with the insurance company. There are only a relative few companies that underwrite aviation insurance and they can get pretty competitive at times.

Like I mentioned in my earlier post, we made no attempt to negotiate lower minimums. We didn't need to. But, that's kind of like walking into a used car dealing and asking how much for that car over there then writing him out a check. :rolleyes:

If for some reason, we ever started using a lot of contract or part-time pilots in our operation I'd maked sure we'd have an "at chief pilot's descretion" clause in the policy. It's really not that big of a deal in most cases.

'Sled
 

English

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Lead Sled said:
If for some reason, we ever started using a lot of contract or part-time pilots in our operation I'd maked sure we'd have an "at chief pilot's descretion" clause in the policy. It's really not that big of a deal in most cases.

'Sled

Hey Sled, I'd let your S2000 beat my Z4 if you let me fly with your copilot sometime :)

He seems really nice.
 

HMR

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English said:
Hey Sled, I'd let your S2000 beat my Z4 if you let me fly with your copilot sometime :)

He seems really nice.
I just talked to 'Sleds better looking, snappier dressing cohort. He said he'd be happy to fly with you on any of his 27 days off per month.:p
 
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