Military to Civilian flight time help

[toonces2]

Hello all,
I'm sure this question has been beat to death, but I'm having trouble finding the info I'm looking for. Here's the deal:
I'm putting together my resume, and I'm having the typical trouble figuring out how to convert my military flight time into the right civilian blocks. My background is in Navy P-3's, so my flight time was primary (undergraduate) in T-34's (single engine trainer), T-44 (King air) and P-3's.

At first I thought it was pretty straight forward. Time logged as "aircraft commander"=PIC, everything else is SIC. Now that I've done my research, it's not nearly so clearcut.

According to what I can find on AirInc, the legal breakdown on time according to FAR 61.51 is like this: Time logged as "student" in a plane that requires only one pilot can either be logged as student or PIC, but not both- meaning the instructor logs the PIC, the student is "student" time.

Once upgraded to a plane over 12,500 lbs which requires a type rating, any plane that requires two pilots, the pilot who is the "sole manipulator of the controls" can log PIC. The pilot who "signed for the plane" can also log PIC. So, there can be two pilots logging PIC on the flight.

How this applies to me is this: I have 1,163 hours TT. My T-34 time is 110, all student except for solos. My T-44 time is also all student, since the plane doesn't require a type rating (GW about 6,000 lbs).
P-3 time gets interesting. Time logged after wings can be logged as SIC when under instruction, and PIC once qualified (natops check in the Navy, type-rating civilian) whenever you are flying the plane as first pilot or manipulator of the controls. Also, any time logged as "aircraft commander" can be logged as PIC as well.
This makes a big difference in my flight times. If I only log aircraft commander time as PIC, I come up with:
TT 1163
PIC 90.5
SIC 990
If I log SIC time using first pilot/ second pilot after wings and PIC time for all first pilot time after my checkride in the P-3, plus time logged as aircraft commander (minus time already logged as first pilot) I get:
TT 1163
PIC 548
SIC 442

I spoke to someone who works for a 121 cargo company and has been in the industry awhile, and he strongly encouraged me to log time like this; AirInc advocates this as well.

Can somebody please weigh in on this and help me figure out if I'm doing this right? The last thing I want to do is get blackballed for "stretching" my numbers. On the same note, I want to ensure I claim what I legitimately can to make myself as competitive as possible.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Mooseflyer]

Mike, I wondered the same thing as I approached my separation. And yes, there has been a fair amount of discussion on the topic. What you'll find is that most of the companies to which you'll be sending resumes want to see PIC logged in accordance with part 1 of the FARs, not part 61. This basically means that you log PIC when you are the one who "signed" for the aircraft (i.e. the guy who gets his nuts in a sling if something "undesireable" happens). In the USAF, this person is designated on the flight order by the squadron before you go fly, and of course you have to be qualifed as an aircraft commander or higher. Unfortunately, this will equate to the lower PIC time in your two scenarios listed.

After much discussion and research, I ended up converting my time as follows:
All instructor and evaluator time - 100% PIC
All aircraft commander time - 90% PIC and 10% SIC (to account for time spent flying with IP or EP on training flights)
All copilot time at a seat with controls - SIC (I tossed out ALL my copilot time spent in the jump seat and/or bunk)
All pilot training time dual received - dual received
All pilot training solo time - PIC

I felt that this was pretty conservative and easy to explain, and there's no way anyone can accuse me of padding my numbers. Addtionally, I made an Excel spreadsheet to help explain to any potential intervewers who are interested.

Best of luck,

 

[Mooseflyer]

The best thing to do would be to find out exactly how each company you're interested in considers time, and taylor each resume individually before you mail it (company webiste is a good place to start).

In addition to the above considerations, some outfits allow a "military conversion" of .2 or .3 hours per SORTIE, to account for taxi time which is logged in the civi world but not in the military world (at least not in the USAF anyway).

I have one generic resume to hand out to whomever I may happen to meet with the time broken down as specifed in my post above, and two or three company specific resumes.

 

[CatfishVT9]

I concur with "The Moose". Most companies I applied with want "Part 1" PIC. That makes it easier for us Navy guys since it translates to "you sign, you own".


Don't forget to add in your student solo time.

Catfish

 

[Keydet]

Toonces,

Crazy coincidence--a few of us (all P-3 alums) were discussing this at the squadron yesterday. P-3s are the oddball because even when we are PPC/AC for a flight, we spend a third of that flight time getting coffee, in the rack, or b.s.-ing with the TACCO. The Navy logbook simply sums up flight time by FP and CP and then your A time column is off on its own. If you take all the A time from flights when you were PPC, then add that to the total pilot time on the flights you weren't, you're going to end up with a higher number than what your logbook shows = problem.
Luckily a friend of the family who used to handle ALL of Delta's pilot hiring, and was a former VP guy was near his phone last night. His advice was to simply make sure that the PIC time equals the A time column and the total time equals the total time from your Navy logbook. So, basically, take your total time subtract A time and then you've got an arbitrary SIC number. Granted it's not that scientific, but apparently what the airlines care about is total time and then PIC time (Part I def--your name on the A sheet). I've got several apps out right now and all the online blocks have only asked for Total/PIC/SIC. There haven't been any for dual received, etc., allowing a more critical breakdown. I friend of mine broke down his flight time in the manner I've just described for SWA and there was no problem. I hope this helps...

 

[toonces2]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the inputs. See, what you're describing is how I would expect to log PIC time. BUT, in researching it online, I'm getting conficting info. It would certainly be safer/easier to just log A-time as PIC and everything as SIC, but I don't have the hours to be so conservative if I don't have to be. I'm not a T-34 IP with 1000 hours of A-time here.

I've seen a few airlines, like Hawaiian and SWA I believe, that specifically delineate how to break out PIC time. Others have far less info on their websites: ie. Express Jet, AMR, Mesaba, etc.; airlines I'm prepping resumes for.

I'm pretty confused. My resume has Total time, PIC, SIC, Turbine, ME etc. for times- no dual, student or "other" categories.

The quote I'm going off of from AirInc says,

"Q: Upon earning my wings in the Navy...How do I log time flying in the RAG?

A: After earning their wings...and completing a checkout flight, pilots can log all the time while manipulating the controls as PIC, whether solo or flying with an instructor on board. Keep in mind PIC and dual received can be logged on the same flight....Any aircraft weighing more than 12,500 lbs. requires its pilots to have a type rating prior to serving as PIC....Again, after your first checkride in the F-18 equates to a "type" ride, allowing you to log PIC whenever you are manipulating the controls and for the entire flight when signing for the a/c. You can also log dual received when an instructor is on board.

Q: Once I checked out, I was authorized and flew only as a first officer for a couple of years. Does this time fall under SIC? (this applies to me and is my point of confusion).

A: This is an area of justifiable confusion. In fact, we are surprised by the FAA's official position on this. According to John Lynch, who is principally resposnsible for the massive changes to FAR 61.51 last year, you may log some of your time as PIC, and the balance as SIC.

Mr Lynch advises the following logic to come to this answer:
a. as SIC in a large aircraft, you are exercising the equiv. of a comm. license.
b. as a comm. pilot, you may log PIC time when the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft that you are rated.
c. the FAA recognizes you first formal checkride in a large aircraft as an equiv. to a civ. type ride, thereby satisfying the requirement to be rated in the aircraft.

Q: after upgrading to aircraft commander, I usually traded legs with my co-pilot. How should I log the legs when he was flying?

A: When you sign for the aircraft, you are designated PIC, therefore you log PIC from taxi out to taxi in regardless of who is manipulating the controls."

To quote the pilot with whom I've been conversing, "If the airlines see 1163 hours of total time and 90 hours of PIC, they're going to know you did your hours wrong."

Thanks for all the advice.
Mike

 

[toonces2]

Keydet,
I just re-read your post. How would the airlines (ie. Delta) view a resume with the time broken out as above, meaning all FP time logged after your first NATOPS check in VP-30 counted as PIC? Could you get your friend's inputs on this?

Would you advise putting two PIC blocks, one part 1, and one part 61?
This doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I'm just getting feedback here.
Thanks,
Mike

 

[Keydet]

Mike,

I know it sucks, but everything this guy told me last night pointed toward using Navy A time as PIC. The principle reason behind it is that the airlines get plenty of civilian types that will use the part 61 definition you were describing. In other words, two guys could be out flying and both are logging PIC time--this is what the airlines are trying to filter out. They want to know when it was your a$$ on the line, so to speak. I realize that the Navy is not equally kind to all of us when it comes to flying orders, who gets to take a crew on deployment, etc., but what this guy was saying last night on the phone is that as a Navy pilot you are a known quantity coming to the table (i.e. someone else maintains our logbooks, and we go through standardized training). I had a PPC when I was a 2P who was going to try and get his MC qual, so that after I qual'ed as PPC, he could log Z time and give me the A time. Most squadrons are aware of this scam and have eliminated it.
I don't know if you've read this article on AIR Inc, but it should clear up a lot of questions..
http://www.jet-jobs.com/articles/loggingpic.html

 

[JungleJetFO]

I've seen a few airlines, like Hawaiian and SWA I believe, that specifically delineate how to break out PIC time. Others have far less info on their websites: ie. Express Jet, AMR, Mesaba, etc.; airlines I'm prepping resumes for.

Your comment above breaks it down in a nutshell. You don't have the Part I PIC time to get hired at a major but you do have enough Part 61 PIC for a regional. Don't sweat it, SWA isn't going to be calling you anytime soon. But you do have quality time for the regionals and they will call you based on all your P-3 multi time. Don't confuse logging your flight time with applications. Your logging of flight time should come straight from the FAR's and you should log PIC Part I or Part 61 accordingly. The majors just care about Part I PIC, for the most part. The Part 61 PIC is valuable in that you can then have the minimums for an ATP and it's going to get you a job at a regional. So log it the right way, as per the FAR's and you are going to get a call. Myself, I have two PIC columns in my log book, Part I and Part 61 (sole manipulator of the controls).

 

[Booster]

Logging PIC

I agree with Keydet's 0621 post. Do not try to make it complicated. Make sure you pay attention to Logs & Records guys, ensure the entries in your logbook are correct.

You have a while before you become competitive, keep plugging away.