Military time (AFORMS) to civ applications

[CookieMonster]

Any body out there have a good way to convert your military flight time (AFORMS product) to civilian. Especially when it comes to PIC? I have flown 2 aircraft after pilot training...and am trying to figure out the best way to start getting my times worked out. I have not kept a good logbook...and will rely on my AF printout. Any help would be appreciated.

Cookie Monster

 

[Draginass]

AFORMS doesn't translate into a civil logbook very easily at all. Potential employers are most interested in Jet time and PIC time, and of course, total time. The FAA allows you to log it while "sole manipulator" of the controls. "Other" AFORMS time doesn't count for anything, and most airlines will tell you not to count it. I was a heavy driver, for airline resumes, I just counted all of the time while a copilot as SIC and all of the time while an aircraft commander/IP/EP as PIC time. Better to undercount that appear to be padding. Employers will usually give you specific instructions on how to count your military time. For instance some say NOT to multiply your military time by 1.3 to equate to block-to-block civil time, while others such as Jet Blue want you to. One generic resumes, I'd recommend NOT using the multiplier. The HR people at the airlines have a lot of experience dealing with military pilots. Military pilot time is golden to the airline HR people. They might take a look at your AFORMS, but they know where in the USAF to call and get your AFORMS time verified. They know you're not padding time like a few civilians do. During both major airline interviews I had, they didn't even ask to see a logbook. At the end of one interview, I asked the interview Captains if they wanted to see my logbook and they said "Nah, that's not necessary." Offered jobs by both airlines as well.

Bottom line is, I'm not sure that it's worth the time to go back and reconstruct a line entry logbook from your military flying. It takes an awful lot of time and probably will have a lot of holes like tail numbers, destinations, etc. missing . . . . and I never had anyone even interested in it anyway . . . just the AFORMS printout. For military pilots, what I think they're looking for is if you meet the competitive minimums, did your military flying career progress normally, and does you're personality meets their corporate culture.

 

[flogged]

You should be able to take your AFORMS flying history product and see your totals in column form as C-21 MC, C-21 MP/IP, C-17 MC, and C-17 MP/IP. I'd recommend just totalling your C-21 and C-17 MP/IP times, subtracting other time from each category and call that your PIC time. Some folks might say to take 80% of that time to reflect a 'realistic' average of the time where you actually had the A Code. You might have a better feel for how often you were/weren't the guy w/the A code and use a factor you are comfortable with if you feel like accounting for that.

 

[Korgs130]

I took all my MP/IP (minus other time) and then subtracted 75 hours for upgrades. At SWA they allow a .3 hr converstion per sortie, so that was added in as well. For the log book check at the interview they looked at my AF Form 5 for about 2 seconds and said "okay." No log book was needed.

 

[dudemize]

Other time

The other time thing is always confusing especially in the C-5 since we fly with 3 pilots 90% of the time (hence 1/3 of our time is other). If you are the A code then your are the PIC regardless if you are in the seat or not. This is the rationale most C-5 guys use to count other time in their PIC as well. Well unless a company specifically states that other time can't be used (I think SWA). No one I know had any trouble during interviews regarding the other time.

 

[KingKong]

Never kept a log book and just took my AFORMS to the interview. No problems at all. If I were doing a review, like line pilots do here in my company, and a mil pilot came in with his own log book and no AFORMS, I would think there may be something in the closet besides clothing.

 

[CameronW]

A friend of the family, who is a Captain with AA and was formerly on the management/hiring staff at TWA, recommended I keep a logbook to track my flight time, and keep track of PIC/SIC time, which the military does not track. He suggested it would make filling out the applications easier when the time comes, and told me that there are some airlines who would want to see a traditional logbook. Come interview time, he suggested I bring both my personal logbook and my AFORMS printout, although he didn't seem to think my personal logbook would be scrutinized very closely.

I talked to him at length about how I should be logging my time, and here is what he had to say.
- Log all time as aircraft commander/IP/EP as PIC, whether I'm in the seat or not. If I'm responsible for the flight- it's PIC. If an airline wants "other time" subtracted from that total, they'll make it known.
- Log all time as copilot as SIC (but don't count "other" time while I was a copilot as SIC, since another pilot would have been acting as SIC during that time).

I've also found out through conversations with the FSDO that per the FAR's, our sim time doesn't count, at least when it comes to ratings like ATP. Therefore, I'm not counting sim time in my personal logbook. I figure if any airline is interested in my sim time, it'll be on my AFORMS product.

Take it easy,

 

[Topper]

Anyone care to comment if I'm on the right track with the following summary for converting Air Force heavy AFFORMS time?

PIC = EP+IP+MP primary+MP secondary
SIC = Copilot Primary + Copilot Secondary
TOTAL time = PIC+SIC

Also, I've had some guys tell me to add UPT student time in the flight total and accound for it as "dual received." I've been reluctant to do so since I've assumed that total hrs needs to equal PIC+SIC on the apps (I've not seen an entry for "dual received" on the apps I've seen so far). Any clarification on this would be appreciated.

 

[dudemize]

To your PIC I would throw in MP Other as well. I think most places recoginize that if you are the AC then you are PIC whether in the seat or not.

 

[Hdawg]

I think as long as you can explain your times (spreadsheet, etc.), your method is good. I discounted my other time as the A code because the other guy in the seat had the J code. Can argue either way but I went for the no brainer method.

 

[fredflyer]

Topper,

Your formula is about what I did, (I also included MP other, but that depends on the airline) and there were no questions about it at the interview, however, you may want to move some of the MP primary from PIC to SIC to account for training received (locals, checkrides, upgrades, etc.) since most people still log a local as MP primary, even though they aren't in command. That is, if you even do that stuff in the airplane anymore. I know C-5 active duty does most of their currency stuff in the simulator now. If you don't want to go back and actually count the time up, just use a basic formula... one checkrde every 18 months, a few locals a year, etc. Just show that you are taking it into consideration.

 

[MarineGrunt]

I'm at UPT, soon to hit the flight line. When I do, should I be logging my dual time in the "dual received" column? I'd assume so, since the tweet doesn't require an SIC.

When you use the 1.3 x military time for the airlines, do you use that for just the resume, or do you convert the times in each logbook entry?

 

[MarineGrunt]

Also, should I log my T-37 solo time as PIC???

 

[Swede]

Also, should I log my T-37 solo time as PIC???

Any solo is PIC. When my own transition (mil --> civ) came, the interviewers were interested in the AFORMS printout and only looked at my log to check the non-military flying. Interviewers are smart dudes and have seen it all. They know what to look for with military flying time. Just be sure to use reasonably conservative formulas for transforming mil to civ when writing your resume. You don't want to be faced with a question like "how is it that your resume says 1,600 PIC when your AFORMS really shows only 1,000?"

 

[Yahtzee]

Caveat Emptor

The other time thing is always confusing especially in the C-5 since we fly with 3 pilots 90% of the time (hence 1/3 of our time is other). If you are the A code then your are the PIC regardless if you are in the seat or not. This is the rationale most C-5 guys use to count other time in their PIC as well. Well unless a company specifically states that other time can't be used (I think SWA). No one I know had any trouble during interviews regarding the other time.

my .02 for the SWA application:

1) Don't include other time in your application. PERIOD!

2) Swede is correct. Solo time is PIC. I choose not to log it that way. If my 14 or so hours of T-37 time and 20 or so hours of T-38 time were that critical to my success, then the hiring airlines are hurting for qualifed applicants. I don't believe that to be the case, at least for SWA. I personally logged my solo T-37 and T-38 and all three trips to Altus as Student Time. If you feel your solo T-X time will help get you the interview and the job go for it.

3) Total Time does not equal PIC + SIC. Total Time does include Student Time, but not Other Time. The was true at the time I reapplied with the new online application. Double check our website before applying.

just my .02

 

[Topper]

I appreciate the input guys. I agree that student solo is PIC, but it's just not worth the hassle if it's even 5% debatable. Sounds like this is a reasonable conservative verdict for an Air Force heavy guy (student time added)...

PIC = EP+IP+MP primary+MP secondary
SIC = Copilot Primary + Copilot Secondary
TOTAL time = PIC+SIC+UPT student time