military pilots "hot dogging"

[rjl2001]

Thought I'd share a news article I read about military pilots being too wreckless.
http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050508182709990005
They talk about different accidents caused by the pilot showing off to someone. They even talk about how the military frowns on the movie "Top Gun" because it showcases that wreckless attitude of flying. Also, how the Army is taking this into account when considering what manuevers should be taught to its new helicopter pilots.

Obviously, you shouldn't take unnecessary risks anytime you're flying, but I still think they're blowing it out of proportion. I'm also hesistant to really believe everything they're reporting, as it could be a little biased as far as I know. To me it is still human error, just a different kind. Seems like there are probably more important issues involving pilot error induced misshaps then worrying about pilots who are showing off. Plus, I realize the majority of pilots have the competitive type of personality more likely to try and show off, so that's probably just inevitable.

 

[Folding_Expert]

I still think they're blowing it out of proportion

Please tell me this is not news to you.

 

[AlbieF15]

The primary difference in aviation between 1988 and 2005 is the preponderance of 8mm and compact VHS camcorders. What used to be "he said/I heard out..." has now become "take a look at this..."

I never was an show off, but if I wanted to be one I would not try it these days with the huge numbers of cameras (and the internet) out there...

 

[stonewall]

Yeah, that article gave me the beak a little bit, too. We've all met guys who have done stupid stuff, sometimes intentionally and sometimes not. However, the idea that there are a bunch of thrill seeking "flying on the edge" yahoos out there simply isn't true (in any service).

That being said, this chopper pilot in question should get the book thrown at him. I also thought we should've crucified the Marine pilot several years ago for cutting the gondola wire in Italy. When guys knowingly and intentionally violate a rule and bad $hit happens, we have to be the ones that step up and police our own. If we don't, someone else will do it for us.

 

[Purpledog]

I also thought we should've crucified the Marine pilot several years ago for cutting the gondola wire in Italy.

Yeah the guy who was flying a routine MTR with an undepicted tram system on the charts? Snow covered terrain provides almost as good vertical cues as flying over water. Did I mention that their Rad Alt was griped on previous flights? Don't believe everything you read in the media. That was a witch hunt, plain and simple. Thankfully the court ruled in their favor as well.

 

[semperfido]

I also thought we should've crucified the Marine pilot several years ago for cutting the gondola wire in Italy.

what do you know about it. tight **s mo fo

 

[stonewall]

I know the tapes disappeared, and I've spent enough time at 300' AGL and 500 KIAS to know you know when you're too f'in low. At any rate, I don't want to debate a past incident. The point is if someone is knowingly and intentionally breaking the rules, he should get zero sympathy if he f**** up. Disagree?

 

[stonewall]

what do you know about it. tight **s mo fo

And jacka$$, how much low level time you got at 510 GS?

 

[semperfido]

it rubs me the wrong way when you talk about crucifying marines

 

[stonewall]

Concur. Poor choice of words, and I apologize for that. I wrote that in haste.

 

[semperfido]

Concur. Poor choice of words, and I apologize for that. I wrote that in haste.

roger that....tks

 

[JungleJett]

You break the rules, you pay. Simple concept.

Hopefully someone else will not pay. Marine, AF, Navy, Army, if anyone dicks up then make an example of them. You may just save a life.

 

[FastCargo]

This is a subject that burns me up...

It's a tragedy when someone dies or gets hurt because they made a mistake in judgement, didn't know a rule, or a mechanical problem, etc.

It is quite another thing to know exactly what the rules are and violate them blatently with willful disregard.

Moody AFB lost two reserve pilots in a T-6A because they did exactly that. They took off on a cross country, were seen 'showing off (inverted flight)' over a couple of different locations by friends and family. They died the morning after stopping at a local airfield one of the guys used to fly at, by taking off and trying to max perform the aircraft outside of its limits, stalling and crashing in front of friends, and on videotape.

One of the pilots had just gotten hired at JetBlue, and one of them (maybe the same one) just had a new baby.

There was no indication apparently in their previous history that something like this would happen. They weren't known (as far as I know) as the type that would try to do this sort of thing.

What the hell do you tell their families...

"Your son/dad/husband is dead because he was stupid"...

FastCargo

 

[Huggyu2]

Magnum,
Two things come to mind:
- First: avoid the grandstanding. Yes, you've flown low level at 5 bills. But make sure you can speak to THIS accident. Have you read the case?
- Second: you imply that the outcome (e.g. people getting killed) determines the level of the transgression. Let's say the gondola had been empty; would that have changed the level of neglect on the part of the pilots? Would it then be ok?
How about the Viper guy years back that hit the bush 3' off the ground at Red Flag while ingressing at high speed? No one was killed, so emotional drama during the investigation was probably minimal. And when they investigated it, they found that flight discipline was not that much of a factor. It was more of a "human factor" issue. But imagine if he had hit a Boy Scout hiking in the area. I'll bet the outcome would have been different for his career.
Flight discipline should be measured on the actions of the pilot, not the outcome. The fact that someone gets killed means that the lawyers get more involved. But the level of flight discipline remains the same.

 

[stonewall]

Good points...I think most of us are on the same page here, or at least the same chapter.

I didn't start grandstanding until someone called me a tight a$$ ;-)

 

[Huggyu2]

Ah, yes,... SemperFido did get a bit fired up with the name calling. But, "tighta$$"? Semper must not know you. I've never met a CJ-guy that didn't fight to buy the first round for a room full of bro's ;-)

 

[semperfido]

just a knee-jerk reaction. it seemed appropriate at the time. got the desired results. ..but i think we are square now. i would be glad to buy for anyone in uniform

 

[Wild Weasel]

I never understood the showboating because of simple cost/benefit analysis. Doing something stupid and losing the opportunity to fly was far outweighed by the joy and fun of flying a high performance aircraft while getting paid to do it. Never made any sense to me.

 

[Huggyu2]

Who did you do the Tornado exchange with?

 

[VaB]

Yeah the guy who was flying a routine MTR with an undepicted tram system on the charts? Snow covered terrain provides almost as good vertical cues as flying over water. Did I mention that their Rad Alt was griped on previous flights? Don't believe everything you read in the media. That was a witch hunt, plain and simple. Thankfully the court ruled in their favor as well.

Hey Purpledog,

What was the final outcome of that situation? Is there a link somewhere? I thought the pilot and guy in the front seat got flogged for that. I also thought that it was ruled they were in the wrong valley and flying to low.

Not judging or anything, just curious. I flew those same routes over there in Italy and 2000' minimum altitude was indeed a boring "low level".

 

[NavyGuy]

VaB,

Those guys did get run through the ringer. The pilot was brought up on charges, convicted and went to jail. For how long I don't know. The right seater was also court-martialed and run out of the service. But I don't think he got any time in the slammer. The back seaters got off relatively light considering. In fact one of them went on to instruct down at NAS P'cola a few years back. It was a bad deal all together but there were some extenuating circumstances. However it doesn't excuse what happened and unfortunately innocent people were killed.

 

[Purpledog]

The pilot was brought up on charges, convicted and went to jail. For how long I don't know.

He was 'convicted' on the charge of obstruction of justice and did 5 mos. He was aquitted on all charges of manslaughter. Nobody else did time at all.This whole thing stunk like bad politics. There was no mishap board because they didn't want the Italians thinking something was being done in secret. They faulted the command, resident Air Force Wing, Defense Mapping (for not depicting gondola). They also had an expert run the same flight in an AF sim under the same conditions and that guy got down to 300-400'agl. I can't remember the specifics on the Ob Justice charge but I think the pilot just looked at the vid and gave it back. From that point it disappeared. I think the Nav even testified that the pilot had nothing to do with it. However it's been a while and those brain cells have been killed long ago.
Vab I'm not sure about a link. I'm sure there is one out there though.

 

[VaB]

I remember at the time hearing about a video that they had of the incident from inside the cockpit or some such thing. And the RUMOR we heard at the time was that the CO of the squadron and some of the other guys saw it and told his guys to get rid of it and destroy it. Don't know how true that is, but it sure did start to sound stinky after a while.