Military or Civilian

[rjet24]

Hey guys just need some advice. Im currently debating on weather to try and get an air guard flying slot. I am an officer in the army national guard and a regional airline pilot. Would flying for the air guard help me down the road when looking to move on to the majors. Flying for the military has always been something that I wanted to do but would taking the time away from civilian flying be worth it. Also how long would training last? have any of you taken time away from commercial flying for the military? How does it work? Any other advice you have would help. Thanks.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Going guard or reserve is a great deal, especially if you're alreay hooked up (if you wana say that) with a regional job. Training takes about 2 years from AMS/OTS to completing all of your training. During this time, you just take military leave from your airline, and when you come back, you will have the same seniority number, same everything. just like you never left!

It does take a while to get through training, but it's definately worth it in the end if it's something you want to do. Here's what my schedule looked like:

AMS - March 2004 - 6 weeks. Released to civillian world afterwards.
UPT - Late July 2004 - Aug 2005 (you will remain on orders from here until all training is done)
Water Survival - Mid-Aug 2005 - one week course
KC-135 training - September 2005 - Feb 2006
SERE (Land survival) - Late Feb 2006 - 17 day course
Then 45 days of mission seasoning.

From the time I was selected until the time I will be complete, will be about 3 years. It is usually a year (give or take) before you get to AMS/OTS.

Good luck!

 

[rjet24]

MarineGrunt, thanks for the info how was UPT, what are classes like, flying times ext... Also being an officer already in the army guard would I still need to go to OTS. What is AMS? Thanks for the help.

 

[peter185]

AMS = Academy of Military Science (ANG commissioning source)

You would not have to go to OTS or AMS since you are already commissioned.

Classes at UPT are almost always a drag, but you have to do them to fly.

The flying is awesome and is worth the putting up with all of the bull sh$$ to get here.

How long have you been at your airline and how long till you upgrade? If you are a fairly new hire I would not hesitate to go on mil leave to do it. You will probably make more money than staying at a regional. As mentioned your seniority number stays the same, so when you get back 2-3 years from now it will hopefully be about time to upgrade. At a minimum you will be 3 years higher on the payscale at your regional.

 

[rjet24]

Peter185, thanks for the info. I see you are a cfi. Did that help during UPT. How did you go about finding a flight slot? Boarding process? I am a fairly new hire with an upgrade time of about 3yrs. Any other info you can give me would help. Thanks

 

[MarineGrunt]

MarineGrunt, thanks for the info how was UPT, what are classes like, flying times ext... Also being an officer already in the army guard would I still need to go to OTS. What is AMS? Thanks for the help.

Oops, you're right, you wont have to go to AMS or OTS then. Theres a website, www.uptprep.com that will answer most of your questions about classes. They try to make it stressful for you most of the time, but it's not too bad. You should do very well considering your background.

As for flying time, you don't get much. Give or take a few hours, but I have around 90-95 in the Tweet, 110 in the T-1 and when I'm done with KC-135 training next week, should have 50hrs in the tanker. Along with this, you have WAY more sim time than you know what to do with. I think I have about 250hrs in the sim in the past year and a half.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Peter185, thanks for the info. I see you are a cfi. Did that help during UPT. How did you go about finding a flight slot? Boarding process? I am a fairly new hire with an upgrade time of about 3yrs. Any other info you can give me would help. Thanks

I'd say that your chances are excellent of getting hired on with a unit if you shop around. I went to UPT with 500tt and a CFII. I'll admit, that I wasn't the biggest hard charger in the class and regrettably relied on much of my civillian time to carry me through. It works for a little while, but it catches up with you quick. There was a CFII a few classes ahead of me that washed out. Just keep hitting the books and chairflying when you're there and you will do fine.

There are a few ways you can find units that are hiring. Most people direct guys to www.baseops.net where they have postings, or you can go to the Guard or Reserve website and look for unit contact information. It's hard to find out who you need to talk to, but when in doubt, call the recruiter number for that unit and ask who you can contact for information. Most of the recruiters out there are dumb as a sack of hammers, so if that fails, I'd just try calling the unit's generic phone number, get an operator and ask them for the number to Operations for the unit you are looking at. If/when you track someone down, ask them if they are hiring, how you can apply and when the next board is.

The first thing I would do is go take your AFOQT and Basic Aptitude Test. You can call any Air Force recruiter and get the locations where you can take these. You need to have these for any application that you send out. Call your college and get them to send you a few copies of you college transcripts. Get a copy of your RIP (Record of Individual Person) - or something like that. Every branch of the military has a different name for it. I have them my Basic Individual Record from the Marines and that was ok. Most units ask for your DD214. Start soliciting letters of recommendation, as many as you can get. Work on an excellent cover letter and sell your military experience and leadership abilities.

Thats about all I can think of now....

 

[MarineGrunt]

I guess the uptprep.com link is dead, but this may answer some Qs as well... http://www.baseops.net/archive/archiveupt.html

 

[rjet24]

Hey guys thanks for the responses and the help. I am going to seriously start looking for slot. If any of you know any units currenly or soon to be taking applications for pilots slots I would appreciate it. Again thanks for all the help.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Most heavy units hire a few per year. I hear some of the C-17 units are hurting for dudes.

 

[peter185]

Having a CFI isn't a huge factor in my opinion, at that point you should have a good base of knowledge and flying skills to depend on. As marine grunt mentioned there are still idiots that get to that point and don't have much of a clue about flying. As for me I just sent out packages to a bunch of units and got lucky enough to be hired.

In your position I would pursue the ANG and take military leave from the airline, because the 2000 hours of SIC time that you would accumulate in the next 3 years really doesn't mean anything when it comes time to apply to a major. I think having the military training and upgrading to PIC when you got back to the airline would put you in a good position to get hired within the next 6-8 years at a major.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

rjet,

Marine Grunt hit everything on the head about UPT, he may have inflated his sim time a bit, but it does seem like everytime you turn around that you are headed off to a sim, especially since the T-6 syllabus has about 20 more sim sessions at 1.3 a pop than the T-37 syllabus.

Most of the CFIs that I have seen come through who don't have the chip on their shoulders do very well. They leave UPT as better pilots and if they don't have the time to get on with a regional when they get back to their reserve or guard units they are much better CFIs when they go back to the flight schools. I have seen a couple of CFIs that I wonder how they passed a private let alone get past the CFI checkride and they washed out. I have seen guys come through that were like some sort of reincarnated Army Air Corps or Luftwaffe ace from the great war who could do anything to nearly the same level as an IP the first time after a demo, some with prior time and some with nothing but a private. Those with ERJ/CRJ time generally do fairly well as long as they have not become FMS/Autopilot dependent. They are also happier to be away from the crew scheduling for a year, yet use their pass benefits to go home on long weekends, and watch the seniority number get pushed up while they are gone.

Your experience will help your classmates, and you will find yourself helping them to understand instruments, radios, and a whole slew of other issues. And by giving them help when they ask for it, you will make yourself better understand the stuff. Other things will be just as new to you as it is to them, especially when it comes down to formation.

If you get a chance, keep a low profile, help you class mates and you will do fine.

Good luck in your quest

 

[MarineGrunt]

Marine Grunt hit everything on the head about UPT, he may have inflated his sim time a bit, but it does seem like everytime you turn around that you are headed off to a sim, especially since the T-6 syllabus has about 20 more sim sessions at 1.3 a pop than the T-37 syllabus.

Yeah, probably closer to 200, but that includes the 135 sim. We get about 90 hours in the PIQ program.

 

[TankerDriver]

rjet,

Marine Grunt hit everything on the head about UPT, he may have inflated his sim time a bit, but it does seem like everytime you turn around that you are headed off to a sim, especially since the T-6 syllabus has about 20 more sim sessions at 1.3 a pop than the T-37 syllabus.

Most of the CFIs that I have seen come through who don't have the chip on their shoulders do very well. They leave UPT as better pilots and if they don't have the time to get on with a regional when they get back to their reserve or guard units they are much better CFIs when they go back to the flight schools. I have seen a couple of CFIs that I wonder how they passed a private let alone get past the CFI checkride and they washed out. I have seen guys come through that were like some sort of reincarnated Army Air Corps or Luftwaffe ace from the great war who could do anything to nearly the same level as an IP the first time after a demo, some with prior time and some with nothing but a private. Those with ERJ/CRJ time generally do fairly well as long as they have not become FMS/Autopilot dependent. They are also happier to be away from the crew scheduling for a year, yet use their pass benefits to go home on long weekends, and watch the seniority number get pushed up while they are gone.

Your experience will help your classmates, and you will find yourself helping them to understand instruments, radios, and a whole slew of other issues. And by giving them help when they ask for it, you will make yourself better understand the stuff. Other things will be just as new to you as it is to them, especially when it comes down to formation.

If you get a chance, keep a low profile, help you class mates and you will do fine.

Good luck in your quest

Good advice. I went into UPT with near 1,300 hours of civ time, mostly CFII. Other than the typical military BS in UPT like stand ups, formal briefings, etc... I thought most of Phase 2 wasn't as challenging as I thought it'd be when I started. I'd have to say formation was the hardest part for me and most of that was from being a bit intimidated by the idea of being 6 feet from another airplane. Once I loosened up, that became easier also. Phase 3 was a bit more challenging, as I was flying a 450kt T-1 and not a 250 kt T-6 and the extensive amount of mission planning we did can be overwhelming for anyone. As far as stick and rudder skills went, I didn't think the T-1 was hard to fly at all. With you coming from a regional airline, I don't think you'd have a problem.

The main thing is, don't talk much about your prior flight time in UPT. With more than 3/4 of the class coming in with just their PPL, a lot of your classmates will feel threatened that you've got a leg (or two) up on them. As much as they stress team work, it's a competitive environment. As much as they should respect you for where you've been and where you're coming from, some of them won't and this goes for some of the IP's also. You'll run into a few that feel the need to make an example of you. I'd go into a flight with the IP knowing nothing about my past and in our debrief, they'd ask, "Do you have prior flight time?". After saying yes, I could sense a change of attitude. Not all of them, but this happened a few times. Suck it up, keep a good attitude, don't get cocky and you should have no problems graduating in the top of your class.

I had about 295 hours from the start of UPT until I finished 135 school.

 

[rjet24]

Thanks guys I really appreciate the great info. This has helped a lot. If you guys have any more info I would love to hear it. Units looking for pilots (not that I am trying to get out of doing the leg work and research)?? Correct me if I am wrong but most UPT pilots are 2LTs, did anyone have a higher rank while in class. I am a 1LT but should be a CPT before or shortly after beginning class. Did this separate them from the group or make you a target for the IPs. Again thanks for the info.

 

[MarineGrunt]

The highest rank I've seen at UPT for a student was a major. There is usually about one captain per class and a handful of 1LTs. If you go there a captain, you will most likely be the SRO (class leader), which makes it a little more work for you, but with being guard or reserve, that takes a lot of the pressure off, so it works out. We had three captains in our class and the IPs treated them exactly the same as the most junior 2LT.

I'm not sure if my unit is hiring, but if you are interested in the SLC area, I can find out for you. Just send me a PM. I might not be able to get to it this week since I have a checkride I'm getting ready for, but I'll do my best.

 

[71KILO]

Hey guys just need some advice. Im currently debating on weather to try and get an air guard flying slot. I am an officer in the army national guard and a regional airline pilot. Would flying for the air guard help me down the road when looking to move on to the majors. Flying for the military has always been something that I wanted to do but would taking the time away from civilian flying be worth it. Also how long would training last? have any of you taken time away from commercial flying for the military? How does it work? Any other advice you have would help. Thanks.

I have several buddies in my unit that were in your position. One was a Brasilia check airman for ASA before going to UPT. He had over 4000 hours and realized that the military training would get him to a major (which it did) quicker than if he slugged it out at ASA. About a year after finishing UPT he got hired at Delta (he got furloughed two years later, but is back on the property now). Having a guard or reserve job actually helps you out with the airline. I don't want to give away any scheduling secrets, but when you are sick of th airline you go fly for your military unit. It breaks up the boredom and creates some flexibility. Look the final answer is that there is no reason not to go. If you are already commissioned then hop to! You'll go right to UPT. Go fixed wing AF Reserve or ANG and don't look back. You'll never regret it!