Military accident reports?

[SkySpray]

Also posted this in the 'General' section, but thought I may get more feedback posting it here.

Anyone know where to obtain copies of military aircraft accident reports (like the civilian ones at www.ntsb.gov) ?

I'm trying to find information regarding an F-16 crash which occured 8-10-1993 near Nellis AFB.


Thanks in advance!

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Military Accident Reports are not released to the public.

After the investigation is complete, there is a press release of information to the public that contains just the findings in terms of mechanical error, or pilot error in broad general details.

The detailed reports with transcripts, flight data recordings (if any) are all official use only.

 

[Yahtzee]

Accident Boards vs Safety Boards

Tweetdrvr,

I think you mean the results of a Safety Board Investigation are not released to the public, but the intent of your post is on target.

In most cases after an accident, the AF convenes two separate boards. One is a Safety Investigation Board (SIB), while the other board is the Accident Investigation Board (AIB). AIB results can and have been released, although the information realeased is like what Tweetdrvr described and isn't as detailed as a NTSP report. The most recent one I can think of is the T-43 (737) Crash near Dubrovnik (Croatia).

Safety and Accident Boards are separate boards that typically come up with the same findings and causes. A Safety Board to my knowledge has never involved the FAA, or NTSB. Accident Boards on the other hand have used the FAA and NTSB in the past.

I don't know the official purpose of an Accident Board Investigation, but I guess they are used for public release of info (which means they can be used as evidence against the crew.) The SIB results aren't released to the public and there is a good reason. Unlike the AIB, the sole purpose of the SIB is to prevent future accidents. The AF wants everyone to cooperate including contractors who provide the equipment. Under a SIB, a contractor could disclose a manufacturing or design defect without fear of reprisal so future accidents could be avoided. I doubt this information would be found in the AIB of the same accident. If contractors weren't able to be fully open during an SIB, they would likely not disclose any design defects out of fear of being sued by the family of crash victims.

Here are some links regarding the Debrovnik crash:

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun...96_9606132.html

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Jun...6_t0607ct4.html

In the case of the Dubrovnik crash, Gen Fogleman directed only an Accident Board to be convened. A Safety Board was not convened for this accident (which is unusual). Fogleman wanted everything to be public (most likely due to the public scrutiney of the case since Sec Ron Brown was one of the fatalities).

Hope this helps,

Yahtz

 

[Pistlpetet]

Don't know if the same holds true for other services, but in the Army you can not even have a copy of the report if you were the pilot during the accident/incident.

 

[Bustamove]

Mishap Reports

I think the Services have similar processes with different names. We'll see if a former safety officer chimes in here, but I've done a JAGMAN (Judge Advocates Manual) investigation on a mishap so know a little about it.

For the Navy, we call the privileged report an Aircraft Mishap Report (AMR). Those are not releasable and are purely designed to address safety issues in a non-retribution environment. You might remember the storm after someone made Kara Hultgren's F-14 AMR available to the public. I won't get into that, but it illustrates why it's done that way.

Second report done independently is the JAGMAN. It will have conclusions, recommendations and all that stuff, usually using the same sources as the AMR except in different interviews and using different rules - reading of rights etc. The JAGMAN is generally available via Freedom of Information Act and can be used in press releases, lawsuits, and other public forums. That's what it's for.

Hope that helps.

 

[f18pugsley]

To add on what Bustamove wrote, the Mishap Board has access to and can use any and all information from the JAGMAN investigation, but the JAGMAN investigation doesn't have access to any of the information from the Mishap Board (they must perform a separate investigation).

In the Navy, in order to prevent the appearance of impropriety, the JAGMAN investigation report is almost always released before the AMR.

 

[Troll]

Went to the school, but never did the job so I may be off a little. The AMR is now called MIR, Mishap Investigation Report. There are actually two of them, A copy and B copy. A copy only goes to Safety Center and has more info, B copy is what is released to TMS activities. The B copy can be edited into a didacted(?) copy and can be released publicly, but has all privileged info removed. NAVSAFCEN is the approval and I would guess needs a pretty good reason to do it.

 

[LearLove]

It is possible to get the A copy. It depends on who you know and how good your lawyer is.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

the Mishap Board has access to and can use any and all information from the JAGMAN investigation, but the JAGMAN investigation doesn't have access to any of the information from the Mishap Board (they must perform a separate investigation).

Close but not quite. If my memory serves me correctly, the only info withheld from the JAG investigation by the MIB is that which is deemed to be privileged.

ASO in another life

 

[Bustamove]

JAGMAN v.s. MIR

This is kind of splitting hairs, and again it's been a few years, but I remember a parallel process. The MIB doesn't supply anything to the JAGMAN investigating officer, but they obviously have access to a lot of the same things - radar data, log books, engineering reports, etc.

They will probably interview the same people but since they're done under different rules - attributable v.s. non-attributable - the interviews are done separately. In a perfect world the two reports would be virtually identical. And I can't think of any examples where the findings of the two reports differed in any significant way on overall findings. It's just that sometimes the JAGMAN officer has to find different ways to document what the MIB finds to be the truth, or a 'LT Poorluck states that he did this' in the MIR turns into a 'based on the evidence, LT Poorluck may have done this' in the JAGMAN.

 

[pony251]

Mishaps

Good stuff coming out here about how mishaps are investigated and released in the Marines/Navy. I'll offer a few more hairs to split. The CO of the squadron may decide that a JAGMAN isn't even necessary. There is a fair amount of latitude given to him to make his decision. If the mishap was not that severe (i.e, not a class A) and doesn't believe a Jagman would solve anything he is not rerquired to do one. Higher headquarters could require him to do one if they so desire. The A-side of an MIR (mishap investigation report) has all of the facts of a mishap. Time, date, place, etc. It is all FOUO (For Official Use Only) and is mainly derived from the initial message reporting the accident. This is the stuff that the JAG could use. The B side is where the MIshap Board has put all of their analysis. This is strictly off limits to the JAG and the public. That is one of the main reasons MIR's usually come out after the JAGMAN. Remember, the JAGMAN is what the government will use to defend itself against claims from the civilian side and it is not done by a lawyer. The unlucky bastard doing the JAGMAN should have very little contact with AMB (aircraft mishap board)members. The Jagman also can be used against the pilot in any disciplinary hearings and on their fitness report. The Bside info, which includes the statements from the aircrew, is kept privileged, and out of the public eye, to encourage people to tell the truth in a non-retrobutional setting. This is a major difference from the civilian world and also why every ALPA member has a card explaining what to do incase of an accident, call the ALPA lawyer first. However, the B-side report is read by everyone in that aircraft community and they will know what happened. I am sure this finds its way onto fitness reports regardless of what is said. I was recently a DSS/ASO and unfortunately had to deal with all of these issues first hand.

On a side note, the DSS/ ASO qual looks really good on your airline applications. I highly encourage going to the school if you are planning to get out.