Midwest Furloughs

crashpad

"Why do you come to me?"
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Republic: We are Borg. Resistance is futile.
This isn't a very good analogy. The Borg "assimilated those that they took over. The Borg did not waste the valuable life forms encountered. The Borg did not kick people to the curb. The Borg did not hire unskilled, inexperienced Borgs to run The Mother Ship.

Really...you're analogy is an insult to anything related to Star Trek.
 

crashpad

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Seriously...a lot of experienced, good people are out of a job because of Republic Management and every Republic Employees who support and enable these job actions by simply showing their face at work.
 
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ABC123

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Crashpad...WRONG being a CHQ employee, I DO NOT SUPPORT THIS! Period no discussion
 

erikgigem

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Seriously...a lot of experienced, good people are out of a job because of Republic Management and every Republic Employees who support and enable these job actions by simply showing their face at work.
  • Bank loans company money to operate.
  • Company goes out of business because of failure of business plan.
  • Bank owns assets.

Don't get mad at the employees of the bank. (We had nothing to do with the lending or the failure of said company's business plan.)
Get mad at the CEO of the company that couldn't sell his product and service. Period.
 

LearLove

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the problem with the article is that it mentions the furloughs but fails to say that the lost jobs are being replaced with cheaper/less exp. labor flying the same routes ala Republic (no diff. than a manufacturing job going to chinola or mexico). If this were addressed the general public reading this article would have a better understanding of the Midwest pilot/employee struggle.
 

joeyfly55

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seriously...a lot of experienced, good people are out of a job because of republic management and every republic employees who support and enable these job actions by simply showing their face at work.

+1!!!!!
 

relief tube

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yup, there should be an article about how pilots that have been with the co. for 10-15 plus years are being offed so a bunch of 20 year olds who've been there less than 4.

crashpad, you point the finger at the wrong group. Half the fella's at repub probably hate this crap.

point it at the recession

point it at the competition thats going in there with their $39 fares to cut midwest's head off

point it at the fact that midwest was too weak of an airline to survive all this anyway. name one all business-class type airline thats still even around or doing well right now?
 

B-J-J Fighter

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How many Midex pilots will be left after the furlough? Save the Cookie!!
 

crashpad

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yup, there should be an article about how pilots that have been with the co. for 10-15 plus years are being offed so a bunch of 20 year olds who've been there less than 4.

crashpad, you point the finger at the wrong group. Half the fella's at repub probably hate this crap.

point it at the recession

point it at the competition thats going in there with their $39 fares to cut midwest's head off

point it at the fact that midwest was too weak of an airline to survive all this anyway. name one all business-class type airline thats still even around or doing well right now?
True statements spoken with sound rationalle. Emotions run high when something like this hits close to home.
 

Minimaniac

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the problem with the article is that it mentions the furloughs but fails to say that the lost jobs are being replaced with cheaper/less exp. labor flying the same routes ala Republic (no diff. than a manufacturing job going to chinola or mexico). If this were addressed the general public reading this article would have a better understanding of the Midwest pilot/employee struggle.

At least if it was phrased that way, people would focus their hate at the right group. When manufacturing jobs are shipped overseas, the unemployed workers and the general public fault the company that farmed out the work. No one seems to ask why Midwest was unable to afford to keep its 717's, or why Midwest could not afford to replace its fleet and keep its own people employed. But, it's always easier to hate the little guys, isn't it? Just as if daddy punched you in the face on the way to school, instead of fighting back at him, you go and punch some smaller kid when you get to school to make yourself feel better.
 

WayBack

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What do you expect when you have a pilot group willing to fly a mainline airplane for sub regional wages? They're scum bags!

You don't support it? Call in sick.
 

erikgigem

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What do you expect when you have a pilot group willing to fly a mainline airplane for sub regional wages? They're scum bags!

You don't support it? Call in sick.
Your sad attempts to influence RAH is pitiful. The pilot group will continue to do what it does best. Fly safe, fly ontime, and be competitive with other regionals in the metrics that are clearly reported and known by all on DOT's website. Changes in quality of life, payrates, and other critical important issues are handled through our union. And that takes an extremely long period of time. Can you name one instance where pilots called in sick changed the CEO's mind about the direction of the company? I'm listening.

Why don't you fix your own company before throwing stones at others. The only one who can influence RAH is the investors. If it is that important and a heartache for you - then invest a few of your millions in the company and get a seat on the Board of Directors.
 

Moustache

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Why don't you fix your own company before throwing stones at others. The only one who can influence RAH is the investors. If it is that important and a heartache for you - then invest a few of your millions in the company and get a seat on the Board of Directors.
I'm willing to bet you lick windows!!
 

Minimaniac

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What do you expect when you have a pilot group willing to fly a mainline airplane for sub regional wages? They're scum bags!

You don't support it? Call in sick.
I'll save my sick time, and attend union meetings, but thank you.

Only 20 pilots have been awarded seats on the 190, and half of them are pilots who currently fly the CRJ type, which will be gone by the end of the year. That is less than 1% of our pilot group who has made the choice to fly the 190. Name one airline that doesn't have its "one-percenters".

Everyone keeps pointing to our pay rates and screaming, and makes the assumption that these pay rates are somehow acceptable to the pilot group. One more time, for everyone's benefit (not that anyone is listening):

The current RAH CBA was signed in 2003, and became amendable in 2007. The rates contained within that CBA were average to above average for 50 and 70 seat aircraft during that four year period. In that four year period, no 190's, or larger aircraft had a real chance of coming on property. With no expectation of 190's or larger in the four years the contract was designed to cover, the union did not waste time and negotiating capital pushing for industry leading rates on anything larger than the 175. We all know our pay is far from groundbreaking. Industry average pay is something that our pay negotiations centered around.

All 50 and 70 seat payscales were looked at in a matrix by us and the company, and the result was rates that were generally within a dollar or two, ABOVE and below, of all other 50 seat operators in the US. The same applies for how the 70 seat pay was determined. Mesa hurt us. PSA's blended pay hurt us. Skywest's overrides hurt us. RAH got good rates RELATIVE TO OUR COMPETITORS. Go over to APC and check out all the regionals, and compare RAH 145/CRJ pay to other 50 seat pay. Compare RAH 170 pay to CRJ-700 pay at other carriers. Compare the 175 pay to CRJ 900 pay elsewhere. Show me an example where RAH pay is substantially below any other US regional carrier.

All of this mess with Midwest and Frontier has come about two years AFTER the intended life of our contract. RAH has been negotiating for that long. I bring up the pay matrix because it WILL be used again. However this time we KNOW that we will have to consider rates for the E190, the Airbus, and the Q400. Jet Blue pay will figure into that matrix. Unfortunately, so will US Airways 190 pay. As for the Airbus, there are many operators out there to use, and the average pay for that size aircraft is pretty much set. We won't have trouble getting a continuation of Frontier's current rates for that size aircraft. The Q400 pay will be difficult, because Lynx and Colgan pay so poorly for that airframe. Horizon will help us.

RAH pay is currently based on seats. In light of the fact that we are now acquiring a very diverse fleet, and given the number of issues we as pilots have had internally with our management is regards to a seats-only pay basis, I would not expect to see that remain as the sole criteria for pay in the future. It was tried, and it failed us. Its called evolution. Every contract experiences it.

As for FO pay, I will speak for almost every pilot at RAH and say that we know it needs changed. But keep in mind, in 2008, one year after the amendable date of our contract, we did not have single FO on property who reached the max 4 year FO pay without having had the opportunity to upgrade. Our union felt that if someone made it four years and wanted more money, they should upgrade. Everyone had their chance. Those who did max out on FO pay did so by choice. The union projected the career expectations of a RAH FO correctly, and the four year FO pay scale covered everyone. Now, in 2009, we are seeing FO's hit the max, but it is well past the lifespan of the contract. Three years ago, senior leadership in the union told me that they intended to bring up overall FO pay and FO longevity scales in this upcoming contract.

So in short, YES, RAH pay is low compared to mainline pay. But, RAH pay is on par with other regional airlines. In 2003, there was no reason for any of us to think that RAH (then just Chautauqua) would be buying and operating mainline brand names and aircraft during the life of this contract. No other airline did. Why would we? We still had SAABs, and a handful of jets. No mainline airline got a perfect contract their thrid time trying. These great unions and iron clad contracts of mainline lore were built over many decades of trial and error. At mainline carriers, the union was the only oversight management had. At the regionals, our management had so much oversight from mainline management that we never thought our company would be able to pull the stunts that is has in the past two months. Our union never developed the ability to wag the dog because it never had to. Now we do, and we all sincerely hope that our next contract reflects this new responsibility.

Everyone is venting what is on their minds, but no one seems to be applying reason to the situation. No UNION saw this coming. If they had, it would have either been stopped dead, or accounted for in the CBA. 190's and Airbus pay WILL be accounted for in the next RAH contract. More union oversight into the acquisition of new fleet types will be accounted for in the next RAH contract.

Stop saying RAH pilots will take conecssions to fly the Airbus. We haven't taken any concessions yet.

Stop saying that we are all giddy to take Midwest pilot jobs. There has not been an overwhelming number of pilots bidding to fly it.

Stop holding an outdated CBA over our heads as if it were our holy grail, and all we could ever want out of a CBA.

Stop calling RAH a cancer. Every respectable airline has grown at the expense of another. I would be more worried about Allegient and Spirit than RAH. Who is adding 757's to their fleet? Who has trans-con capapbility and sells low fares for those routes?

I know that no matter what CBA we at RAH end up with, the group consensus will be that it is horrible. Even if we keep Frontier Airbus rates, match Jet Blue 190 rates, andbring up our overall pay, you will just rip us apart for some workrules you think we should have gotten, or for not raising the bar higher. I know that pleasing you is impossible, because you have all made up your minds. All I aim to acheive is to appeal to whatever intellect may remain out there, and give context and historical perspective as to why RAH has the contract it has. Maybe someone will at least settle down and wait to see what happens.
 

The Drizzle

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I'll save my sick time, and attend union meetings, but thank you.

Only 20 pilots have been awarded seats on the 190, and half of them are pilots who currently fly the CRJ type, which will be gone by the end of the year. That is less than 1% of our pilot group who has made the choice to fly the 190. Name one airline that doesn't have its "one-percenters".

Everyone keeps pointing to our pay rates and screaming, and makes the assumption that these pay rates are somehow acceptable to the pilot group. One more time, for everyone's benefit (not that anyone is listening):

The current RAH CBA was signed in 2003, and became amendable in 2007. The rates contained within that CBA were average to above average for 50 and 70 seat aircraft during that four year period. In that four year period, no 190's, or larger aircraft had a real chance of coming on property. With no expectation of 190's or larger in the four years the contract was designed to cover, the union did not waste time and negotiating capital pushing for industry leading rates on anything larger than the 175. We all know our pay is far from groundbreaking. Industry average pay is something that our pay negotiations centered around.

All 50 and 70 seat payscales were looked at in a matrix by us and the company, and the result was rates that were generally within a dollar or two, ABOVE and below, of all other 50 seat operators in the US. The same applies for how the 70 seat pay was determined. Mesa hurt us. PSA's blended pay hurt us. Skywest's overrides hurt us. RAH got good rates RELATIVE TO OUR COMPETITORS. Go over to APC and check out all the regionals, and compare RAH 145/CRJ pay to other 50 seat pay. Compare RAH 170 pay to CRJ-700 pay at other carriers. Compare the 175 pay to CRJ 900 pay elsewhere. Show me an example where RAH pay is substantially below any other US regional carrier.

All of this mess with Midwest and Frontier has come about two years AFTER the intended life of our contract. RAH has been negotiating for that long. I bring up the pay matrix because it WILL be used again. However this time we KNOW that we will have to consider rates for the E190, the Airbus, and the Q400. Jet Blue pay will figure into that matrix. Unfortunately, so will US Airways 190 pay. As for the Airbus, there are many operators out there to use, and the average pay for that size aircraft is pretty much set. We won't have trouble getting a continuation of Frontier's current rates for that size aircraft. The Q400 pay will be difficult, because Lynx and Colgan pay so poorly for that airframe. Horizon will help us.

RAH pay is currently based on seats. In light of the fact that we are now acquiring a very diverse fleet, and given the number of issues we as pilots have had internally with our management is regards to a seats-only pay basis, I would not expect to see that remain as the sole criteria for pay in the future. It was tried, and it failed us. Its called evolution. Every contract experiences it.

As for FO pay, I will speak for almost every pilot at RAH and say that we know it needs changed. But keep in mind, in 2008, one year after the amendable date of our contract, we did not have single FO on property who reached the max 4 year FO pay without having had the opportunity to upgrade. Our union felt that if someone made it four years and wanted more money, they should upgrade. Everyone had their chance. Those who did max out on FO pay did so by choice. The union projected the career expectations of a RAH FO correctly, and the four year FO pay scale covered everyone. Now, in 2009, we are seeing FO's hit the max, but it is well past the lifespan of the contract. Three years ago, senior leadership in the union told me that they intended to bring up overall FO pay and FO longevity scales in this upcoming contract.

So in short, YES, RAH pay is low compared to mainline pay. But, RAH pay is on par with other regional airlines. In 2003, there was no reason for any of us to think that RAH (then just Chautauqua) would be buying and operating mainline brand names and aircraft during the life of this contract. No other airline did. Why would we? We still had SAABs, and a handful of jets. No mainline airline got a perfect contract their thrid time trying. These great unions and iron clad contracts of mainline lore were built over many decades of trial and error. At mainline carriers, the union was the only oversight management had. At the regionals, our management had so much oversight from mainline management that we never thought our company would be able to pull the stunts that is has in the past two months. Our union never developed the ability to wag the dog because it never had to. Now we do, and we all sincerely hope that our next contract reflects this new responsibility.

Everyone is venting what is on their minds, but no one seems to be applying reason to the situation. No UNION saw this coming. If they had, it would have either been stopped dead, or accounted for in the CBA. 190's and Airbus pay WILL be accounted for in the next RAH contract. More union oversight into the acquisition of new fleet types will be accounted for in the next RAH contract.

Stop saying RAH pilots will take conecssions to fly the Airbus. We haven't taken any concessions yet.

Stop saying that we are all giddy to take Midwest pilot jobs. There has not been an overwhelming number of pilots bidding to fly it.

Stop holding an outdated CBA over our heads as if it were our holy grail, and all we could ever want out of a CBA.

Stop calling RAH a cancer. Every respectable airline has grown at the expense of another. I would be more worried about Allegient and Spirit than RAH. Who is adding 757's to their fleet? Who has trans-con capapbility and sells low fares for those routes?

I know that no matter what CBA we at RAH end up with, the group consensus will be that it is horrible. Even if we keep Frontier Airbus rates, match Jet Blue 190 rates, andbring up our overall pay, you will just rip us apart for some workrules you think we should have gotten, or for not raising the bar higher. I know that pleasing you is impossible, because you have all made up your minds. All I aim to acheive is to appeal to whatever intellect may remain out there, and give context and historical perspective as to why RAH has the contract it has. Maybe someone will at least settle down and wait to see what happens.
An excellent post. You probably shouldn't bother though, you are still going to be in the middle of this monkey sh!t fight.
 

mynameisjim

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Why do Midwest pilots continue to go to work every day?
 
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