MicroJets or VLJ's Real or crazy ?

[Silver Wings]

I keep reading in the aviation magazines about a huge boom in microjets from the dozen or so potential manufacturers. Apparently these single-owner/pilot single engine jets are going to be delivered in the 1000's over the coming years.

I'd just like to know what everybodies thoughts are on this concept ?

Are these aircraft going to create a big new air-taxi market (and potentially flying jobs) or just clutter the airspace ? Could these aircraft affect the market against buying the more tradional business jets ? At $1million or less, as the projected costs for these aircraft, there are going to be a lot of punters out there on financed deals getting into jets.....perhaps ?

 

[runtofthelitter]

They will quickly become the next Doctor-Killers.

 

[kilroy]

Most of the people who can afford them will never get insured by themselfs as only pilots. They,ll be looking for higher time guys to help out

 

[English]

If that were the case (VLJ as doctor killers), the CJ would have been the same thing. Lots of owner-operators flying those as well. I think there have only been a handful (ok maybe two handfuls) of CJ accidents with owner/operators at the controls.

 

[gear_guy]

Yeah, but the CJ is hardly a $1mil airplane. You're gonna see every Tom, Dick, and Harry that can finance it crawl out for this one.

 

[English]

True, While used CJs can be had for just under 2 mil, VLJs will definitely open the market to more people.

 

[bafanguy]

Most of the people who can afford them will never get insured by themselfs as only pilots. They,ll be looking for higher time guys to help out

I don't know if this idea will fly or not, but there's a guy in FL forming a company to provide retired airline guys as pilots for these airplanes using Part 135, I think. He won't own any airplanes but provide someone to ride with the doctors until they're up to speed. There may be more to it than that, but you get the idea.

He's collecting names and resumes and seems to be convinced this thing is going to happen.

 

[MovingTarget]

Go back to the April 2004 issue of Flying Magazine. There's a fantastic article titled "How Safe Will New Mini Jets Be?" It's written by FM's Editor-In-Chief, J. Mac McClellan. IMHO, it hits the nail on the head. Hope you can find it. This April 2004 issue is the one with the Challenger 300 on the cover.

 

[pilot1704]

I think it will be scary!

Scary tought!

These planes are fast and fly high altitude, which most of the these owner pilots are unfamiliar. Transition from barons, 421's, bonanzas needs a lot of training!

I think and hope that coverment makes high requirements to be able to fly these airplanes!

 

[GVFlyer]

A couple of former Gulfstream Sales exec's are now at Eclipse and Adam. They think that these little guys are going to change the face of air taxi in America and offer a low cost alternative to the fractionals.

GV

 

[AA717driver]

I don't see a huge market for this. Owner-pilots still have to maintain currency which is a bother for a businessman. Hiring even a retired airline pilot(getting more expensive by the day as pensions and medical are gutted) still bumps the cost of ownership.

This may kill the King Air and Baron market but they still won't offer much more range and are only marginally faster. The real financial heavy-hitters aren't going to want to spend an hour preflighting, fly two hours, secure the airplane at the FBO, THEN go to the meeting and repeat the process to go home.

JMO.TC

 

[FracCapt]

The real financial heavy-hitters aren't going to want to spend an hour preflighting, fly two hours, secure the airplane at the FBO, THEN go to the meeting and repeat the process to go home.

Hence the reason that they would have "contract" pilots flying with them.....to do the dirty work so that they can show up, climb in, fly, get out, and leave....without having to do any of the preflighting/securing/flight planning.

 

[GVFlyer]

AA717driver. I don't know if your post was a response to my comments or just a general comment, but in any event the following exert helps to further explain my previous post.



This is from a New York Times article written by Joe Sharkey and published on February 24, 2004:


"... The coming breed of light jets, sometimes called microjets, is envisioned by some planners and government agencies as a potentially important new cog in the air transportation system.

Urban hub airports and the skies above them are becoming ever more congested, while smaller cities lose air service as carriers jam hubs for maximum cost efficiencies. So with 5,000 under-used small domestic airports capable of handling them, inexpensive, short-range jets carrying up to five passengers are envisioned as the workhorses of a new air taxi system that would divert passengers from crowded airports they don't want to pass through anyway, while enabling travelers to get to their destinations more quickly and directly. Operated by entrepreneurs who are planning to enter the field when the cheap jets come into production, fleets of jet air taxis would be a major component of the Small Aircraft Transportation System, called SATS, developed by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to plan for handing off more small aircraft traffic to those underused airports."

GV

 

[wingnutt]

well, apparently one of the fracs likes the idea...

Said Joe Walker, Adam Aircraft president, “We have an agreement for 100 Adam A700s from a known, established fractional provider.” Asked if that provider was based in Columbus (home of NetJets), Cleveland (Flight Options) or Dallas (Flexjet), Walker said the two parties had agreed to provide no more details until the agreement was made final, probably before the end of this year.

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/nbaa/NBAA_04/d2adamp1.html

 

[English]

Hence the reason that they would have "contract" pilots flying with them.....to do the dirty work so that they can show up, climb in, fly, get out, and leave....without having to do any of the preflighting/securing/flight planning.

BINGO.

That's whats happening on the CJ now.

 

[FracCapt]

well, apparently one of the fracs likes the idea...

Said Joe Walker, Adam Aircraft president, “We have an agreement for 100 Adam A700s from a known, established fractional provider.” Asked if that provider was based in Columbus (home of NetJets), Cleveland (Flight Options) or Dallas (Flexjet), Walker said the two parties had agreed to provide no more details until the agreement was made final, probably before the end of this year.

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/nbaa/NBAA_04/d2adamp1.html

It definitely wouldn't be Flexjet....it's not a Bombardier product, which is all they fly. Chances are it wouldn't be Flight Options, since management has always claimed that the VLJ's would not provide enough(any?) profit to be worthwhile. If the claim is indeed true, I would guess NJA. Time will tell, though.

 

[AA717driver]

GVflyer--Sorry, I didn't read close enough.

Anyone have the payrates? TC

 

[bafanguy]

"Hiring even a retired airline pilot(getting more expensive by the day as pensions and medical are gutted) still bumps the cost of ownership."


As one of those retired guys, my impression is the market will set the price of pilots just as it does now, not the potential problems those pilots might have with their own finances. I can tell you, a retired airline guy is in no position to make demands if he wants to find a job.

Personally, I'll believe this one when I see it in full swing, but Palm Beach Airlines has my info on file ( just in case I'm wrong...wait !! that can't happen, right ? ).

 

[Publishers]

Somewhere between the best guess and the worst is the reality. The price is driven by production of units. If the unit production is not maintained past the intial deliveries, price will climb.

There will be a market for these but not like some have predicted. More the light jet for the light company flying a 421 now.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The cheapest one is the Eclipse, which is about $1.2. The rest range from about $1.5-$2.2. They all, basically, offer MUCH better performance than a Baron or King Air. Many of them are much better than the cheapest Citations/Beech Jets available, the cheapest of which are now $4+.

It will change a LOT of stuff in the aviation world.

CLiff
YIP

 

[Corona]

These jets are definitely going to arrive soon. Most of them are waiting for Pratt & Whitney Canada to certify the turbofan engine most of them will be using. I expect certification and delivery of the airframe will go quickly after that.

I concur w/ previous posts saying this will be a huge change in the aviation world. The key with these airplanes is they are cheaper, on a per-mile basis, than any pressurized piston or turboprop twin. They are also faster, though that speed comes with a smaller cabin than most turboprops. I believe the current guesstimate is that most jets will fly legs <2 hours. Fine with me; I get bored after two hours in the flight levels anyway.

The most important question for us, though, is: How much will pilots be paid to fly 'em. Considering current industry trends, I'm guessing about 20-25K, with pay topping out around 35K.

C

 

[wingnutt]

...so how many of you wanna take the bets that once these things hit, simply having turbine PIC will no longer be "magic"? (not that it guarantess a thing in this day and age) does anyone think the mins for all the decent jobs will go the way of fedex and require PIC time in aircraft over XX,XXX pounds?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I keep reading in the aviation magazines about a huge boom in microjets from the dozen or so potential manufacturers. Apparently these single-owner/pilot single engine jets are going to be delivered in the 1000's over the coming years.

I'd just like to know what everybodies thoughts are on this concept ?

Are these aircraft going to create a big new air-taxi market (and potentially flying jobs) or just clutter the airspace ? Could these aircraft affect the market against buying the more tradional business jets ? At $1million or less, as the projected costs for these aircraft, there are going to be a lot of punters out there on financed deals getting into jets.....perhaps ?

The mini biz jets are coming. We are to become independent taxi drivers... just like independent truckers. You buy your own rig, I mean aircraft-taxi and you search for a fare, like a buzzard tow truck driver trolling for wrecks!.... It will become a dog eat dog biz, but someone has got to do it..... as dis-unification and true capitalism tears our safety record into shreds.... It is one thing to get into a shady NYC taxi, it is another to climb into Capt Bobs Citation Mustang of the Checked FlagTaxi company at the local GA airport, cause pax wanna go 7miles/min....
Retied airline pilots will cash in whats left of the Defined Benefits and fly past Age60, tradeing in their ALPA wings for AOPA wings. AOPA will beocme the leading safety advocate in the industry...

The professional Air Line Pilot is becoming a legend and a static display at the NASM Udvar Hazy museum.

If I keep wearing my hat maybe I'll convince myself this isn't happening. Denial...Ignorance is bliss..... What are the sheeple doing? Maybe it is time to blend in the the flock.......

 

[wingnutt]

...of the Checked FlagTaxi company at the local GA airport.[/QUOTE]

lol...anyone else seen the 400 series cessna painted bright yellow like a taxi with a black and white checkered tail around the sacramento area?

 

[Silver Wings]

...of the Checked FlagTaxi company at the local GA airport.[/QUOTE]

lol...anyone else seen the 400 series cessna painted bright yellow like a taxi with a black and white checkered tail around the sacramento area?

Whilst I tend to agree that this dismal future may be the way it is heading, I just wonder if the regulators may this once earn their crust and generate some useful paperwork that actually set acceptable standards...... nope just dreaming......I know they'll cave in to politcial/economic pressure and make some concession that allow these microjets to be operated by any tom dick or harry. (no offense to pro pilots called >Tom Richard or Harold ).

The are single engine turbo prop commercial operation restrictions...so what about single jet restrictions ?

 

[Publishers]

Insurance companies make up the requirements for this, not the government. A company can buy into this for 1/5th of $1.250 m and have an operation that can do quite well.

 

[wingnutt]

lol...anyone else seen the 400 series cessna painted bright yellow like a taxi with a black and white checkered tail around the sacramento area?

...found it!

http://www.flyyellowairtaxi.com/whoweare.aspx