Mesaba & Woerth & "Additional Action"

[PCL_128]

Until we get that mentality back, we're fu*ked.

Get it back? ALPA has never had that mentality for one simple reason: it doesn't work over the long haul! Yes, you might win some short-term victory, but the damage to our credibility would harm us for decades to come. There's a reason that ALPA has been able to keep foreign ownership, cabatoge, age-60 change, and many other legislative issues under control for so long. We have credibility with lawmakers, and we'll lose that if we start acting like a bunch of wild-cat Teamsters.

I've been known to criticize Captain Woerth from time to time for signing those concessionary deals, but I'm going to back off of that. When Captain Woerth came to our picketing event in DTW last week, I spent a considerable amount of time talking with him about these issues. My conclusion? Captain Woerth has a better grasp on these issues than any of us. He has a long-term plan that will work, and not just a bunch of feel-good rhetoric. The slow-and-steady approach may not make you feel very good, but it's what works in the end.

Captain Woerth will win reelection by a landslide, and that's a good thing. We need someone with his experience and patient approach.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

He has a long-term plan that will work, and not just a bunch of feel-good rhetoric. The slow-and-steady approach may not make you feel very good, but it's what works in the end.

PCL, Sorry I wasn't able to walk with you guys. What did DW say to you that made you say the above?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, Sorry I wasn't able to walk with you guys.

No problem. We had a few XJ folks come walk with us, and we had nearly 100 people total in attendance. I think we sent our message loud and clear. :smash:

What did DW say to you that made you say the above?

Captain Woerth has the same goal that he has always had. He calls it "family scope," but we know it as "brand scope." The problem he has had in implementing it to this point is bankruptcy. He's a realist, and he knew that there was no way to implement such a massive change while all of us have been under attack in bankruptcy. It just wasn't possible. The goal is to bring about this change in scope during the next round of collective bargaining when we'll have some leverage.

His example of how he wants to see things was the old Braniff contract that he first worked under in this industry. The scope sections was a single line: "All flying for Braniff Airlines will be flown by pilots on the Braniff Airlines seniority list." To get to that point, we have to be patient and allow things to work within the system. Acting like a bunch of criminals and engaging in illegal wild-cat stikes will not get us to where we want to be. Those things may feel good, but feel-good actions usually don't accomplish much.

 

[Lear70]

Captain Woerth has the same goal that he has always had. He calls it "family scope," but we know it as "brand scope." The problem he has had in implementing it to this point is bankruptcy. He's a realist, and he knew that there was no way to implement such a massive change while all of us have been under attack in bankruptcy.

So tell me this... it's 4-6 more years before ANY of the legacy carriers can even START negotiations, then another 3-4 years before they get anywhere NEAR self-help, so you're talking a decade down the road.

So let's say you are successful in making a HUGE leap forward (ten years from now it will take almost 50% in total raises to get BACK to where we will THEN be making equivalent money (in the year 2015's dollar) and QOL from the late 80's). What's to stop the airlines from living under this agreement, showing financial difficulties again, then filing bankruptcy again 2 or 3 years into the new agreement. That's over a decade from now, you think they aren't just going to pull the same card again?

Isn't this like the 3rd round of bankruptcies for the legacy carriers since deregulation. What was that about "those who fail to learn from history..."?

The bankruptcy rules did NOT change enough to keep them from pulling all this off again. There's no "peaceful" solution that's going to work, there's just too much going in management's favor and the pendulum has no reason to swing back our direction at the judicial / legislative level.

His example of how he wants to see things was the old Braniff contract that he first worked under in this industry. The scope sections was a single line: "All flying for Braniff Airlines will be flown by pilots on the Braniff Airlines seniority list." To get to that point, we have to be patient and allow things to work within the system.

Will never happen. Management stands to lose WAY too much, and pilots are simply too greedy to stand firm when push comes to shove. One or two airlines had their opportunity THIS round to do so and failed. NWA was beginning to post HUGE profits, and still they caved. Delta's in the same position. Same thing will happen next time, I'll bet you a C-note.

Acting like a bunch of criminals and engaging in illegal wild-cat stikes will not get us to where we want to be. Those things may feel good, but feel-good actions usually don't accomplish much.

Hmmm... seemed to work out well for 2 other labor groups I can think of. Don't see much happening to them as a result, now do you?

DW's approach hasn't worked, isn't working, won't work in the future. You HAVE to be willing to walk away under the current management play book, otherwise they will win EVERY TIME. Negotiations as DW knew it in the last 3 decades IS OVER. Time to write a new play book.

Until you people learn that and quit drinking the ALPA kool-aid, the whole industry will suffer as a trickle-down effect from comparative contract analysis during negotiations.

 

[PCL_128]

So tell me this... it's 4-6 more years before ANY of the legacy carriers can even START negotiations, then another 3-4 years before they get anywhere NEAR self-help, so you're talking a decade down the road.

Check your facts.

Continental - Section 6 negotiations open in 1.5 years
Delta - Section 6 in 2.5 years
United - Section 6 in 2 years
USAir - Right now

Will never happen. Management stands to lose WAY too much, and pilots are simply too greedy to stand firm when push comes to shove. One or two airlines had their opportunity THIS round to do so and failed. NWA was beginning to post HUGE profits, and still they caved. Delta's in the same position. Same thing will happen next time, I'll bet you a C-note.

Sorry, but the oportunity simply wasn't there this time around. It's just not reasonable to think that we could accomplish something of this magnitude under the bankruptcy umbrella. Leverage was nonexistent this time. Now that the airlines are making massive amounts of money (and will likely continue to increase profits for many years), we will have the leverage we need. You don't go for the moon when you're practically powerless. You wait for the time when you have some power, then you strike. Patience is a virtue.

Hmmm... seemed to work out well for 2 other labor groups I can think of. Don't see much happening to them as a result, now do you?

Those labor groups don't work under the RLA. Until you recognize that that's a different ballgame, you'll never understand how this process has to work.

DW's approach hasn't worked, isn't working, won't work in the future. You HAVE to be willing to walk away under the current management play book, otherwise they will win EVERY TIME. Negotiations as DW knew it in the last 3 decades IS OVER. Time to write a new play book.

Captain Woerth has had the misfortune of holding office during the worst time for airline labor in the history of aviation. We have the most anti-labor administration in the White House that has ever been there, including President Reagan's administration. The courts have been against us, the media has been against us, and yes, even our fellow pilots have been against us (RJDC, TWA and Emery pilots suing us, etc...). Under the circumstances, Captain Woerth has done amazingly well. For 20 years he has dedicated himself to ALPA work. How much of your time have you devoted to ALPA work, Rich? Have you volunteered to help the NPA yet? Did you contribute to ALPA-PAC? Do you contribute to CAPA-PAC now? Unless the answers to these questions is yes, then your really have no room to criticize someone who's devoted most of his life to the work of the Association.

 

[fly4ever]

Rich,

It's good to read your posts again. I have always appreciated your views - much more realistic. Having been involved in the XJ debacle over the past several years it was only the "hope" of things getting better that made us carry on. I have left XJ and am now at NetJets (ran out of hope) and am still watching the travisty unfold. The next few days will either bring an end to the company or the bar will be lowered but not for lack of will power on the part of the pilots. The airline industry is going to continue along with management making unprecedented amounts of money and the employees subsidizing those payouts and with no end in sight. Ten years is probably a conservative time frame for recouping even a fraction of what was given up. I don't know what my future will hold (do any of us in the aviation industry?) but at least I am in a less stressful place for now.

Take care

 

[fly4ever]

PCL 128,

Keep in mind that DW is a politician running for re-election and is telling you and others what he thinks you want to hear. Just like any good politician, he can look people in the eye and get most of them to believe everything he is saying. Be careful becoming a convert of a politician.

With respect,
Fly

 

[PCL_128]

PCL 128,

Keep in mind that DW is a politician running for re-election and is telling you and others what he thinks you want to hear. Just like any good politician, he can look people in the eye and get most of them to believe everything he is saying. Be careful becoming a convert of a politician.

With respect,
Fly

DW doesn't have to buy my vote. I'm a Sec-Treasurer, so I'm a non-voting attendee of the BOD. Besides, he isn't really campaigning for anything to be honest. His re-election is in the bag. I haven't even received a campaign mailer from him in a couple of months.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Who would want the job of ALPA president anyway?

 

[kmox29]

Who would want the job of ALPA president anyway?

I understand that it has a pretty nice salary attached to it.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I understand that it has a pretty nice salary attached to it.

Are you going to run?

 

[PCL_128]

I understand that it has a pretty nice salary attached to it.

Not nearly enough to make it worth while to put up with everything.

 

[kmox29]

Are you going to run?

I am no longer a member of ALPA.

 

[PCL_128]

I am no longer a member of ALPA.

You aren't required to be to run for ALPA President.

 

[kmox29]

You aren't required to be to run for ALPA President.

Suuuhhhhweeeeeeeeet...

 

[Lear70]

Check your facts.

Continental - Section 6 negotiations open in 1.5 years
Delta - Section 6 in 2.5 years
United - Section 6 in 2 years
USAir - Right now

And how long for NWA? Hadn't checked the other airlines, but most of those, with 3-4 years of negotiating, will still be almost a decade, NWA will be longer.

Sorry, but the oportunity simply wasn't there this time around. It's just not reasonable to think that we could accomplish something of this magnitude under the bankruptcy umbrella. Leverage was nonexistent this time.

Bullsh*t. Simply bullsh*t.

The opportunity WAS there. The airline management teams new d*mn good and well that they were on the cusp of a very profitable era, and the unions knew that as well in some cases. They refused to do what the flight attendants ARE doing... simply say No, let something get imposed, then attempt to strike. The courts will NOT be able to enjoin the labor groups from striking once the company exits bankruptcy - and they can't hide there forever.

THAT would be a perfect opportunity to accomplish the sweeping changes you're speaking of. Airline fresh out of bankruptcy, record profits, and you free to engage at self-help at will because you are now working without a contract and the company has NO bankruptcy protection once exited.

Now that the airlines are making massive amounts of money (and will likely continue to increase profits for many years), we will have the leverage we need.

You're living in a pipe dream, buddy. I love ya' like a brutha from a different mutha to quote one of my coworkers, but you're just delusional. The airlines will show profits until it's time to NOT show a profit anymore, then they'll start finding their one-time capital expenditures, expenses, and other items that make the balance sheet look bleak enough to where, yet again, you'll "live to fight another day". Again, care to bet a C-note on it?

Those labor groups don't work under the RLA. Until you recognize that that's a different ballgame, you'll never understand how this process has to work.

And until you guys realize the RLA renders us powerless EXCEPT on the ONE RARE OCCASSION when you are freed to engage in self-help, AND TAKE ADVANTAGE OF IT, the slow decline of comparable income will continue.

How much of your time have you devoted to ALPA work, Rich?

2 1/2 years of my time at PCL in one form or another.

Have you volunteered to help the NPA yet?

Not 'til I'm off probation. I may be dumb sometimes, but I ain't stupid.

When I'm off probation I may volunteer in some area or another behind the scenes, but I won't get as involved as I tried to get with PCL's MEC/LEC structure. I have better things to do with my time (mainly my family) and, quite frankly, I would be happy with the current contract (if the company stopped violating 2 specific sections they started messing with lately) with COLA and longevity raises, a couple extra % to the B-fund, and a few QOL issues resolved. We already have SCOPE, we already have trip & duty rigs. Anything else is gravy. No reason to get as involved as I was with ALPA, we don't have as much stupid sh*t to fix.

Did you contribute to ALPA-PAC? Do you contribute to CAPA-PAC now? Unless the answers to these questions is yes, then your really have no room to criticize someone who's devoted most of his life to the work of the Association.

I have ALL the room to criticize in the world. I gave 5 years of dues to ALPA and never saw a better contract, never saw improved work conditions, never saw enforcement of our CURRENT contract, and lost THOUSANDS of dollars in pay with grievances that are STILL outstanding and will likely never be positively resolved (I expect they'll be swept under the rug when it comes down to brass tacks at the end of negotiations at PCL).

Additionally, I've seen the beginnings of cabotage with the cargo carrier operations in this country, have NOT seen better rest and duty limitations and, quite frankly, don't see any benefit in contributing to any -PAC fund (but we've been over this before). Everything politicians do that benefits us as pilots have ulterior motives that benefit the politicians in other ways.

Step away from the kool-aid...

Man, it's been a couple months since I got to debate you like this. Too bad the stakes are so high, otherwise I'd enjoy it a lot more...

 

[Lear70]

Rich,

It's good to read your posts again. I have always appreciated your views - much more realistic.

Thanks man, although my previous coworkers always referred to it as "more MILLITANT".

Having been involved in the XJ debacle over the past several years it was only the "hope" of things getting better that made us carry on. I have left XJ and am now at NetJets (ran out of hope) and am still watching the travisty unfold.

CONGRATS! One of my good buddies got hired on there earlier this past Spring as well, he loves it! Good luck to you over there, you're in a MUCH better place.

The next few days will either bring an end to the company or the bar will be lowered but not for lack of will power on the part of the pilots.

I sincerely hope that Mesaba proves to be the first holdout to actually achieve something by letting them impose working conditions (note I didn't say an "agreement"), then trying to strike and just waiting for MSA to exit then pouncing!

You guys deserve SO much better...

The airline industry is going to continue along with management making unprecedented amounts of money and the employees subsidizing those payouts and with no end in sight. Ten years is probably a conservative time frame for recouping even a fraction of what was given up.

I don't believe the airlines will ever completely recoup, just go to 1980's wages and do the COLA adjustment out to now, 2010, 2020, and keep going and you'll realize it would have to effectively DOUBLE what pilots are making now by 2020 to be "comparable" wages to the 80's. Not likely

I don't know what my future will hold (do any of us in the aviation industry?) but at least I am in a less stressful place for now.

Take care

Amen, brutha', you too!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I guess the additional action is that no ALPA carrier will be allowed to fly XJ routes. Good work DW, the judge will then have to grant the injunction.