"Mesaba will soon face a 'cash crisis,' Spanjers says"

[WMUSIGPI]

not outlandish salaries just a salary that allows for a reasonable payoff for the investment made in order to qualify for that job.
Which today's salaries don't come close to compared to today's expenses and time to become qualified for the job

 

[D'Angelo]

not outlandish salaries just a salary that allows for a reasonable payoff for the investment made in order to qualify for that job.
Which today's salaries don't come close to compared to today's expenses and time to become qualified for the job

Its actually more like an at risk investment. You spend all the money, time whatever. Actually not everyone even has to spend money. Some have trust funds, some pay as they go and finish debt free, and some go to the military. It is irrelevant really what you spend to get the job. Your investing banking on the fact that you will get one of those jobs at the majors. Doesnt mean every salary should come up just because your in debt. If you dont wanna be in debt there are other alternatives. Also you dont always get a return on your investment. Thats what we call life, you win some you lose some. If every jobs salary was based on what you had to pay to get it then everyone would just spend loads of cash on their degree and think they were entitled to outlandish salaries as well. The salary is based on the market not what you spend.

 

[Crizz]

Its actually more like an at risk investment. You spend all the money, time whatever. Actually not everyone even has to spend money. Some have trust funds, some pay as they go and finish debt free, and some go to the military. It is irrelevant really what you spend to get the job. Your investing banking on the fact that you will get one of those jobs at the majors. Doesnt mean every salary should come up just because your in debt. If you dont wanna be in debt there are other alternatives. Also you dont always get a return on your investment. Thats what we call life, you win some you lose some. If every jobs salary was based on what you had to pay to get it then everyone would just spend loads of cash on their degree and think they were entitled to outlandish salaries as well. The salary is based on the market not what you spend.

You're right about the market dictating our salary, but I think your attitude is very wrong and is this very reason the "Market" is as it is. You seem to have no problem accepting the FO pay as reasonable.


To be considered for an airline job, lets all agree you need at minnimum a Commercial Multi Instrument, and some kind of time building activity. Just the CPL-Inst ticket alone costs the average person as much as many people pay for their entire college education. Add on top of that a 4-year degree. Its clear, no matter if you pay as you go or incur debt, it is very expensive to be considered qualified for a job with a regional airline. The funding source should be of no consequence.

Contrast this with ANY profession that requires higher education, and the starting salary. 20k is laughable. Even twice that is considered a low end entry level professional position.


Its our willingness to work for these wages thats killing us. It looks like a day or reckoning may be brewing.

 

[D'Angelo]

The reason the pay starts so high is because doctors will not work for less. If the pay was lower there would be very few doctors. The problem with our profession is people think they can automatically jump in and start making a lot of money after just a couple years in the game. If attrition was higher wages would go out. BTW though besides first year pay fo pay on at most regionals after the 1st year is definately livable.

 

[Crizz]

BTW though besides first year pay fo pay on at most regionals after the 1st year is definately livable.

So is pay at Home Depot, McDonalds, and Greyhound.


IMO, even $35K is atrocious considering the level of responsibility and qualification inherent in operating a transport category aircraft.

Do you honestly believe the things you are saying, or are you an imposter re-incarnate?

 

[D'Angelo]

So is pay at Home Depot, McDonalds, and Greyhound.


IMO, even $35K is atrocious considering the level of responsibility and qualification inherent in operating a transport category aircraft.

Do you honestly believe the things you are saying, or are you an imposter re-incarnate?

prove it that just average workers at McDonalds or Home Depot make more than us. Im not talking about managers just average workers. I make more than 35K plus we do not sign for the aircraft. The captain does and therefore makes much more money and lives it up like a king. Most McDonalds workers, even a lot of managers make a lot less. The average store manager makes around 30K/year from what ive been told. Home depot would probably make more because its a bigger store. Keep in mind a store manager has to work well over 40 hours a week to keep the store running. Most have to work 50-60 hours a week and dont get paid overtime for it because they are on salary. This is why our goal is to upgrade. As FOs we are captains in training and therefore have to wait a bit to live it up. Sure maybe some managers can make a bit more than FOs. Most do not however make more than captains. They have to work a lot harder than we do as well. We just show up, do our thing for a few days and go home for a few days.

 

[Crizz]

prove it that just average workers at McDonalds or Home Depot make more than us. Im not talking about managers just average workers. I make more than 35K plus we do not sign for the aircraft. The captain does and therefore makes much more money and lives it up like a king. Most McDonalds workers, even a lot of managers make a lot less. The average store manager makes around 30K/year from what ive been told. Home depot would probably make more because its a bigger store. Keep in mind a store manager has to work well over 40 hours a week to keep the store running. Most have to work 50-60 hours a week and dont get paid overtime for it because they are on salary. This is why our goal is to upgrade. As FOs we are captains in training and therefore have to wait a bit to live it up. Sure maybe some managers can make a bit more than FOs. Most do not however make more than captains. They have to work a lot harder than we do as well. We just show up, do our thing for a few days and go home for a few days.

This doesnt even warrant a response.

 

[Dodge]

I was in my 5th year as an FO at XJ before I cracked $30,000. I am one of those that helped to get the situation to where it is today. I should of cut my losses years ago. D'Angelo, while a little irritating at times, has a valid point with the medical field. Professionals who require advance degrees to be qualified for their jobs are not going to accept a $40,000 job. Why? They view a job for what it is. A way to collect your nuts and berries for the winter. For some reason, pilots can not come to terms with that. Flying is fun. That is what lead me to this job and why all of us put up with the wages. If pilots could view every trip as work, have no fun, worry for a month straight before your PC.....maybe we all wouldn't have been so eager to jump into a low paying field.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

perhaps better education of those considering the job would be in order. still most people are shocked to find out I was on pace for about $21000 before the layoff. They assumed I was making at least $60000 as the first year FO. and the captains would all be at least 100K. if everyone knew how little money there was in the job I bet the pilot mills would maybe not go away but they'd certainly shrink

 

[Crizz]

D'Angelo, while a little irritating at times, has a valid point with the medical field.

I agree with D'Angelo - the market will dictate.


I take issue with his idea that 20-30k is a "liveable" wage and commensurate with the job performed - in that regard HE is creating and enabling this "market".

 

[Dodge]

It's just like any other field. Capitalism will find the rock bottom pricing every time. When airlines have trouble fielding classes, the pay will come up.

 

[flyby]

I agree with D'Angelo - the market will dictate.


I take issue with his idea that 20-30k is a "liveable" wage and commensurate with the job performed - in that regard HE is creating and enabling this "market".

I agree.

This career was okay when it had a progression. You taught flying for 15 bucks an hour for a few years. Then you flew a turboprop for 30-40 bucks an hour for a few years. Then you went to work for a major where the pay was great and so were the work rules.

Then came the attack, not 9/11, the attack on the working class. Face it, we are blue collar workers. Call yourself a 'professional' all you want, but you're a bus driver in a service industry. Corporations need to be profitable and they can do whatever they want to make it that way in this 'corporation-friendly' age.

Frankly, I think the 'market' sucks and I'd rather have some protection against it's savagery. They tell me that's where unions are supposed to come in. People talk about the market like it's the purest form of virtue in the world and we should embrace it like a religion. The market is fueled by greed, not what's right for you and me and everyone's future.

good luck!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

perhaps better education of those considering the job would be in order. still most people are shocked to find out I was on pace for about $21000 before the layoff. They assumed I was making at least $60000 as the first year FO. and the captains would all be at least 100K. if everyone knew how little money there was in the job I bet the pilot mills would maybe not go away but they'd certainly shrink

The pilots at the puppy mills who say they can take the paycut because they like what they do are talking about the paycuts at the majors. These kids have very little idea of what the industry is like and that's why they accept these jobs. Pilots getting into this profession have such a scewed view of what it actually is. These flight schools businesses' largely depend on the flat out lies they tell their students. Never have I seen any other professional training institution flat out lie about the career field they were teaching. For example, I clicked on that ATP ad at the top, and no where on that site does it describe the airline profession or compensation.

 

[gnx99]

I agree with D'Angelo - the market will dictate.


I take issue with his idea that 20-30k is a "liveable" wage and commensurate with the job performed - in that regard HE is creating and enabling this "market".

Exactly. High supply of pilots, low demand = low pay. D'Angelo's problem is that he's more than willing to resign and accept mediocrity. Most people on this board are average americans that fight to try to get ahead in life (careers, money, house, cars, family, etc...) D's a perfect socialist.

 

[XJohXJ]

Whetever he is, he isn't a socialist. He's way too selfish for that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

The pilots at the puppy mills who say they can take the paycut because they like what they do are talking about the paycuts at the majors. These kids have very little idea of what the industry is like and that's why they accept these jobs. Pilots getting into this profession have such a scewed view of what it actually is. These flight schools businesses' largely depend on the flat out lies they tell their students. Never have I seen any other professional training institution flat out lie about the career field they were teaching. For example, I clicked on that ATP ad at the top, and no where on that site does it describe the airline profession or compensation.

Is ALPA doing anything to raise the standards for a 121 pilot? If not, why not? Maybe ALPA could learn something from the AMA.

 

[xjhawk]

what i am saying, is that alpa should have a minimum....set for per seat.....that locks the price of labor at a set minimum. then each labor group can fight for more....work rules or cash per hour.

 

[gnx99]

Whetever he is, he isn't a socialist. He's way too selfish for that.

Oh yeah, I forgot his Flight Attendant comment.

 

[zonker]

I agree.

This career was okay when it had a progression. You taught flying for 15 bucks an hour for a few years. Then you flew a turboprop for 30-40 bucks an hour for a few years. Then you went to work for a major where the pay was great and so were the work rules.

Then came the attack, not 9/11, the attack on the working class. Face it, we are blue collar workers. Call yourself a 'professional' all you want, but you're a bus driver in a service industry. Corporations need to be profitable and they can do whatever they want to make it that way in this 'corporation-friendly' age.

Frankly, I think the 'market' sucks and I'd rather have some protection against it's savagery. They tell me that's where unions are supposed to come in. People talk about the market like it's the purest form of virtue in the world and we should embrace it like a religion. The market is fueled by greed, not what's right for you and me and everyone's future.

good luck!

Great post.

 

[Snakum]

The pilots of non-union carriers have ALPA, APA, NPA, etc... to thank for their good fortunes.

I do seriously wonder how you can go from silver-spoon PFT/PFJ boy to Mr. Rah Rah ALPA after you paid tens of thousands of dollars for your first FO job then paid again for your second. Have you no shame? You $h!t all over your peers on the way to the regional jet then overnight become Mr. Union Guy? Izzat how it works? You are a poster child for FU-I Got Mine.

These guys ought to be beating your azz for the way you bent them over.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

The pilots at the puppy mills who say they can take the paycut because they like what they do are talking about the paycuts at the majors. These kids have very little idea of what the industry is like and that's why they accept these jobs. Pilots getting into this profession have such a scewed view of what it actually is. These flight schools businesses' largely depend on the flat out lies they tell their students. Never have I seen any other professional training institution flat out lie about the career field they were teaching. For example, I clicked on that ATP ad at the top, and no where on that site does it describe the airline profession or compensation.

which is why everyone needs to be educated about the reality of today's industry. Everyone I still talk to from college outside aviation is doing better than I am, even the ones that never graduated. Had I known that the best I would do now 6 years out of college was $24000 and currently unemployed. I'd have run faster than the Road Runner. I thought (based on mid to late 90's) I'd be at least a regional captain if not major fo right now banking at least $75-80K/yr with at least 15 days off each month. I got into this job for the money followed by the days off... if only I were more interested in the days off than the money.