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Mesaba Ta
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othello
Well-known member
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- 217
Roadshows by our MEC are stoping at all the bases this week to hand out copys of the entire TA 100 + page document not just the 4 page summary that everone is jumping all over. Along with a power point prestation and explination that ties all of the improvments together as one, and shows were we stand via charts and graphs verses all the other regional in all portions of the TA.
The roadshows wrap up in CVG on friday and then voting starts Friday and will last a week. We should know the results by the evening on Friday the 30th of Jan.
The roadshows wrap up in CVG on friday and then voting starts Friday and will last a week. We should know the results by the evening on Friday the 30th of Jan.
NEWSOUTH
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2002
- Posts
- 172
The 4 page summary is the best they had to offer. That is their marketing diamond. Those graphs with 03 rates makes you guys look almost on par. But not really. 04 rates makes you look .....
I thought the race to the bottom stopped with MSA on the 9 of Jan. You guys will still be talking about the pay you got for the day and a half of flying you did not do on the 10 and 11 for the next 5 years. As if we are suppose to factor that into your contract rates or something. Your pilot group will never stop amazing me with your mainline wannabe mickey mouse contract. Just vote no. Look behind curtain #2. Just peek at it man. Then you want have to justify your behavior for the last 7 years. Or the next.....years.
The proudest pilot group to walk the face of this planet. Now hold the line.
I thought the race to the bottom stopped with MSA on the 9 of Jan. You guys will still be talking about the pay you got for the day and a half of flying you did not do on the 10 and 11 for the next 5 years. As if we are suppose to factor that into your contract rates or something. Your pilot group will never stop amazing me with your mainline wannabe mickey mouse contract. Just vote no. Look behind curtain #2. Just peek at it man. Then you want have to justify your behavior for the last 7 years. Or the next.....years.
The proudest pilot group to walk the face of this planet. Now hold the line.
justmeinmsp
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 11, 2003
- Posts
- 154
NEWSOUTH
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2002
- Posts
- 172
No, just passive agressive. I've been taking your pilot groups' mouth for so long and letting it roll off my back. Even a Mesa crew started in on me about stealing your jobs. Thats your pilots causing that misinformation.
Your pilot group even dared to call us scabs a week before the so called strike. After all that donation of time and support. You have no respect for our pilot group and never have.
Now ya gonna pay the piper. Vote no or Mesa ba you will become. The irony......
Your pilot group even dared to call us scabs a week before the so called strike. After all that donation of time and support. You have no respect for our pilot group and never have.
Now ya gonna pay the piper. Vote no or Mesa ba you will become. The irony......
NewSouth,
I think you just inherited Mesaba2425's place as the biggest loser on the planet.
BTW, the summary came no where close to listing all of the improvements. Think what you will but just the fact that we get paid from day one in training, get a single occupancy hotel room during training and get a company ID which allows travel from day one puts us far above your contract. I didn't have to work 14-15 months for the company to get a year's worth of pay. The list can go on. If you want to limit the discussion to only pay rates, it is true that they are not where we would like them to be but you will be getting your last pay raise in two months. Then you will be opening your negotiations in Dec. which will begin a long and tedious process which we hope will move you above us not just in pay but in work rules of which you have very few.
If you want to comment on our TA then read it and compare it to our current contract and to yours. Your contract has never been anywhere near where ours is and our TA improves on the current agreement in many areas. It is not industry leading that's for sure but to top Comair at this time was not possible. Even the new CEO at Delta has put the bankruptcy card in plain view for his company. This will mean not only cuts for Delta but for Comair ultimately whether in concessions or loss of flying to someone cheaper. Reality bites. I am still leaning towards voting no but the roadshow was informative and there is a lot of information to digest. The length of our contract has doubled (180 pages). The 4 page summary didn't begin to cover all of the enhancements that have been added. Get educated then maybe your comments will actually have some merit.
I think you just inherited Mesaba2425's place as the biggest loser on the planet.
BTW, the summary came no where close to listing all of the improvements. Think what you will but just the fact that we get paid from day one in training, get a single occupancy hotel room during training and get a company ID which allows travel from day one puts us far above your contract. I didn't have to work 14-15 months for the company to get a year's worth of pay. The list can go on. If you want to limit the discussion to only pay rates, it is true that they are not where we would like them to be but you will be getting your last pay raise in two months. Then you will be opening your negotiations in Dec. which will begin a long and tedious process which we hope will move you above us not just in pay but in work rules of which you have very few.
If you want to comment on our TA then read it and compare it to our current contract and to yours. Your contract has never been anywhere near where ours is and our TA improves on the current agreement in many areas. It is not industry leading that's for sure but to top Comair at this time was not possible. Even the new CEO at Delta has put the bankruptcy card in plain view for his company. This will mean not only cuts for Delta but for Comair ultimately whether in concessions or loss of flying to someone cheaper. Reality bites. I am still leaning towards voting no but the roadshow was informative and there is a lot of information to digest. The length of our contract has doubled (180 pages). The 4 page summary didn't begin to cover all of the enhancements that have been added. Get educated then maybe your comments will actually have some merit.
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Twotter76
Masterless Samurai
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 697
So if the TA is voted down then will there be another round of negotiations or will you guys walk right away? What is the consensus over there - will it pass or not? I use you guys to commute so I am very interested in how this will play out... thanks for all the rides to work and good luck...
Twotter76
Twotter76
Twotter,
First I want to say that you are welcome aboard anytime we can fit you.
To answer your question, if the TA is voted down the so-called "status quo" period comes to an end and we can strike, the company can lock us out, a moratorium can be declared for a certain amount of time which allows for continued negotiations under the current contract rules or the company can suspend all work rules and pay scales and abide only by the FARs paying us only what they see fit to pay. Obviously, the last option is out of the question and we would strike before we got to that point.
Voting begins Friday at noon and will go until next Friday at noon. We can vote early and if we hear something to add to our information we may change our vote prior to the deadline. The announcement of the tally will probably take an additional couple of hours since the results have to be certified. Then we will all have to live with whatever the decision is and either spool back up to a strike frenzy or get on with life and hope for better times ahead. There are no promises of aircraft being dangled at this time. I don't think anyone can predict the outcome at this point.
Hoping for the best, not sure of the rest.
First I want to say that you are welcome aboard anytime we can fit you.
To answer your question, if the TA is voted down the so-called "status quo" period comes to an end and we can strike, the company can lock us out, a moratorium can be declared for a certain amount of time which allows for continued negotiations under the current contract rules or the company can suspend all work rules and pay scales and abide only by the FARs paying us only what they see fit to pay. Obviously, the last option is out of the question and we would strike before we got to that point.
Voting begins Friday at noon and will go until next Friday at noon. We can vote early and if we hear something to add to our information we may change our vote prior to the deadline. The announcement of the tally will probably take an additional couple of hours since the results have to be certified. Then we will all have to live with whatever the decision is and either spool back up to a strike frenzy or get on with life and hope for better times ahead. There are no promises of aircraft being dangled at this time. I don't think anyone can predict the outcome at this point.
Hoping for the best, not sure of the rest.
flap operator
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2002
- Posts
- 507
mesaba2425
Hmmmmm
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2002
- Posts
- 280
I have a question.
NWA management was supposed to decide and announce earlier this month on whether the AVRO's would stay as NWA feeders and elected to defer that decesion/announcement until the contract situation at Mesaba is known.
The TA allows 40% of Mesaba aircraft to be transferred.
1.) What percentage is the AVRO fleet ?
2.) If you guys were to vote the TA in, and NWA bones you by transferring the AVRO's (or causing the AVRO's to go because of no need) what kind of pay raises to the Mesaba pilots get ?
It seems to me that SHOULD this scenario occur, 80% of F/O's would get a 100% pay cut and most if not all captains would get a LARGE pay cut (AVRO rates - Saab rates) to far LESS than current.
Yeah better work rules, but there might be something you guys don't see coming until AFTER you're nailed with it.
Have you considered the ramifications of being a smaller MSP turboprop only operator for the next couple of years until your whipsaw services are needed against the pinnacle pilots ?
Perhaps someone with solid info on this could shed some light ?
NWA management was supposed to decide and announce earlier this month on whether the AVRO's would stay as NWA feeders and elected to defer that decesion/announcement until the contract situation at Mesaba is known.
The TA allows 40% of Mesaba aircraft to be transferred.
1.) What percentage is the AVRO fleet ?
2.) If you guys were to vote the TA in, and NWA bones you by transferring the AVRO's (or causing the AVRO's to go because of no need) what kind of pay raises to the Mesaba pilots get ?
It seems to me that SHOULD this scenario occur, 80% of F/O's would get a 100% pay cut and most if not all captains would get a LARGE pay cut (AVRO rates - Saab rates) to far LESS than current.
Yeah better work rules, but there might be something you guys don't see coming until AFTER you're nailed with it.
Have you considered the ramifications of being a smaller MSP turboprop only operator for the next couple of years until your whipsaw services are needed against the pinnacle pilots ?
Perhaps someone with solid info on this could shed some light ?
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LivinDaDream
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2003
- Posts
- 77
eaglefly,
here ya go....
1) AVRO's equal about 38% of the fleet. The 40% limit for fragmentation was negotiated down from around the 70% that the company wanted.
2) The AVRO cannot be transferred per the NWA Pilot's scope. Only we can fly them. I can't see NWA transferring them to mainline. It is already a cost nightmare. Add the additional crew costs, higher ramp, maintenance, and CSA costs and NWA will be seriously bleeding. It would be cheaper to bring back 36 DC-9's. NWA can't afford to park them either. Parking them would cost about 450 million a year according to an industry analyst, without even counting the loss in feed.
While losing the AVRO's is unlikely, the prospect of this is ugly for those that get displaced or furloughed. However, if we were just a turboprop operator, we would be the highest paid TP group in the industry with this TA.
here ya go....
1) AVRO's equal about 38% of the fleet. The 40% limit for fragmentation was negotiated down from around the 70% that the company wanted.
2) The AVRO cannot be transferred per the NWA Pilot's scope. Only we can fly them. I can't see NWA transferring them to mainline. It is already a cost nightmare. Add the additional crew costs, higher ramp, maintenance, and CSA costs and NWA will be seriously bleeding. It would be cheaper to bring back 36 DC-9's. NWA can't afford to park them either. Parking them would cost about 450 million a year according to an industry analyst, without even counting the loss in feed.
While losing the AVRO's is unlikely, the prospect of this is ugly for those that get displaced or furloughed. However, if we were just a turboprop operator, we would be the highest paid TP group in the industry with this TA.
Thanx. I agree about being the highest paid TBP drivers but for virtually all, it would seem to be a massive loss should those A/C be parked.
I can't say whether this TA is the right thing to do.
I hope you guys are considering all the possibilities and potentntial risks.
God Speed.
In any case, you'll never be thought of the way the Mesa pilots are (the "freedom" pilots NEVER were real airline pilots in spirit - just parasites masquarading as airline pilots).
I can't say whether this TA is the right thing to do.
I hope you guys are considering all the possibilities and potentntial risks.
God Speed.
In any case, you'll never be thought of the way the Mesa pilots are (the "freedom" pilots NEVER were real airline pilots in spirit - just parasites masquarading as airline pilots).
othello
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 217
"who else has a 4 hour min day?"
No one else has it. Air willy has a 3.0 but theirs includes some exceptions, we have the same ALPA negotiater as Air willy and she assured us our TA gives us a step up on them in work rules.
Our 4 hr min comes in big time if we get Jr manned/ Drafted to work a turn. I.E we get time and a half so say they give us a DTW-TOL turn about 20 min each way. we will get our 4 hr min day pay at 150% = 6 hr of pay. min
Pay scale is nice to look at but once again it is the work rules that make you the money.
Everyone is pissed because we didn't reach our goal on the pay scale but you gotta look at the whole thing.
No one else has it. Air willy has a 3.0 but theirs includes some exceptions, we have the same ALPA negotiater as Air willy and she assured us our TA gives us a step up on them in work rules.
Our 4 hr min comes in big time if we get Jr manned/ Drafted to work a turn. I.E we get time and a half so say they give us a DTW-TOL turn about 20 min each way. we will get our 4 hr min day pay at 150% = 6 hr of pay. min
Pay scale is nice to look at but once again it is the work rules that make you the money.
Everyone is pissed because we didn't reach our goal on the pay scale but you gotta look at the whole thing.
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othello
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2001
- Posts
- 217
"She would have had a hard time justifying her paycheck if she wouldn't have at least told you that. Amazing that anyone would trust the assurances of a lawyer."
And I didn't think I needed to site her sourses but the power point presentation had a comparison chart. And No one else has a 4hr look Forward min day pay.
Your comment about trusting a lawyer is really reaching now, she our negotiator/lawyer and has been in the treaches with us at the table for 2 1/2 years. It is her job to do the very best for the mesaba pilots.
I can't link you to the power point but here is the just of it.
Mesaba TA will take us from none like to PCL and MAG to the top of the industry is 4hr look FWD
ACO: 4:00 (Look Back)
ARW: 3:00 (Look Forward)
CMR: 4:20 (Look Back)
EGL: 2:00 (Look Forward)
PCL: None
HOR: 4:00 (for single duty
period trips only)
MAG: None
TSA: None
Keep in mind look back is almost worthless.
Let me know if you would like an explnation of FWD v Back.
And I didn't think I needed to site her sourses but the power point presentation had a comparison chart. And No one else has a 4hr look Forward min day pay.
Your comment about trusting a lawyer is really reaching now, she our negotiator/lawyer and has been in the treaches with us at the table for 2 1/2 years. It is her job to do the very best for the mesaba pilots.
I can't link you to the power point but here is the just of it.
Mesaba TA will take us from none like to PCL and MAG to the top of the industry is 4hr look FWD
ACO: 4:00 (Look Back)
ARW: 3:00 (Look Forward)
CMR: 4:20 (Look Back)
EGL: 2:00 (Look Forward)
PCL: None
HOR: 4:00 (for single duty
period trips only)
MAG: None
TSA: None
Keep in mind look back is almost worthless.
Let me know if you would like an explnation of FWD v Back.
Last edited:
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