Mesaba Ta From Their Roadshow

[100/hour/5y]

http://www.private2atp.com/ta/MSATAroadshow4.3.pdf


This sucks.... Work at home Depot or apply to ComAir..XJET or Air Wisconsin before you vote yes on this...

Just check out Xjet soon to be new TA... it will Blow the industry away j

 

[Sam Fisher]

Just check out Xjet soon to be new TA... it will Blow the industry away j

Not that I would be voting "yes" if I were at Mesaba right now, but what makes you think that our TA will "blow the industry away?" Do you honestly think you will see anything remotely close to $100/hour at year 5 on date of signing? If so, pass me the bong...I need a hit....

Sam

 

[redflyer65]

Great Turbo-prop rates, but then again they could be gone as soon as the ink dries. The worst thing about this TA is as of 5/1/04, it's below PCL payrates. Vote how you need to, but to me it doesn't look that great. Good luck guys, and PCL pilots continue to support you either way.

 

[alrightythen23]

Great Turbo-prop rates, but then again they could be gone as soon as the ink dries. The worst thing about this TA is as of 5/1/04, it's below PCL payrates. Vote how you need to, but to me it doesn't look that great. Good luck guys, and PCL pilots continue to support you either way.

Last time I checked, Mesaba will not have any 50 seat RJ's on 5/1/04 so it is a moot point. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[ksu_aviator]

Any one else notice that all the people that aren't envolved in the XJ negotiations are saying vote no or you are a moron. I don't suppose anyone cares what the XJ pilots are going through. I don't know if they will or won't sign the TA but cut them some slack. They are going through a lot and don't need some pricks hiding behind a keyboard to tell them what to do.

Mesaba pilots, vote for what is best for you and ignore the rest of the industry. They have their own agenda and it does not concern you.

 

[mesaba2425]

Any one else notice that all the people that aren't envolved in the XJ negotiations are saying vote no or you are a moron. I don't suppose anyone cares what the XJ pilots are going through. I don't know if they will or won't sign the TA but cut them some slack. They are going through a lot and don't need some pricks hiding behind a keyboard to tell them what to do.

Mesaba pilots, vote for what is best for you and ignore the rest of the industry. They have their own agenda and it does not concern you.

Posters didn't cut the Mesa pilots any slack so why should they give Mesaba a break?

 

[strega7]

Didn't give SkyWest any slack either.

 

[flyn96]

You continue to be a butt plug mesaba2425

 

[PCL Flt-ops]

Last time I checked, Mesaba will not have any 50 seat RJ's on 5/1/04 so it is a moot point. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's pretty ironic to hear this sh.it from a Mesaba pilot since all I ever heard from you guys was how bad BigSky was for signing those crappy CRJ rates / payscales. "Yeah, but BigSky didn't have CRJs, so I guess it was a moot point....(hint- sarcasm)"

 

[Simon Says]

People, people, people,

At first look this contract looked like something we could work with, but we needed to send it back to get a couple of fixes. After going to the road shows and seeing comparisons of other leading contracts ours really isnt that bad. Two things fall short, Fo pay for 44-59 seat and 60-69 seats, plus the 5 year term.

Captain pay is above most, but below some.

Our work rules lead the industry! I repeat OUR WORK RULES LEAD THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!

What everything boils down to is what a person brings home on their W-2. If you don't believe me I have seen two peoples last paycheck on what they made in the year of 2003.

4-5 year FO making $30.05/hr
$39,284

5-6 year SF-340 Captain (line holder)
makes $45.28/hr
$58,016

Work rules give you quite a bump in paychecks. So when you all talk about Pinnacle, Mesa, ACA, Air Wisconsin, Comair making $1-3 dollar more an hour than a Mesaba pilot ask them what pay is protected when a trip is cancelled, Ask about CDO's, ask about minimum pay garantee, ask about a minimum pay day, ask them what kind of scope protection they have, ask about training on the back side of the clock, ask about retirement, ask about jumpseats. And then ask to see their W-2 at the end of the year compared to a Mesaba pilot.

We fell way short in FO pay, fell a little short in Captain pay, and are also signing a 5 year contract. Mesaba pilots, by far, blew away the competion with work rules and scope. (yes we sold some for solid scope.)

At first my vote was a no, But now knowing the facts I changed it to an absolute YES.

 

[othello]

PCL guys you are correct that the Mesaba TA payscales are very close to what you are making.

But that is it every other section of our TA is above and beyond the PCL contract. We may have the same pay scale but when the paycheck arrives we will be making 15+% more money.

Start with the 4 hr min daypay, block or better pay, with our new TA if we get Jr maned to do a turn it is 6 hr pay min. How much will you make if you get called in to do a DTW-LAN turn?

Then move to life stile 11 days min. No CDO's in regular lines which is huge if you do CDO's you do CDO's and if not none.
our industry leading trainning section got even better. Retirement we are 2ed in the industry only 2% behind Comair and over 10% above you.

Let me know if you would like me to continue.

How about this you find 1 section of your contract that is better than our TA and let me know.

We are all on the same team here and for you to just look at payscale and tell us what to do is off base.

WE got imporovment in 90% of our sections and held even in the other 10%. We did come up short on what we wanted in payscales. But is a 3 -5 $ an hr pay raise on a 50 jet we dont even fly worth giving up all the other gains?

We could have Comair payrate but we will have to give up something to get it.

 

[AWACoff]

Simon Says,
You need to actually read the contracts of Pinnacle, Mesa, ACA, Air Wisconsin, Comair, etc. before you go proclaiming you have the BEST WORK RULES!!

For instance (other pilots at the above mentioned please chip in),
At Air Wisconsin we get paid the greater of scheduled, actual, or rig. This is by the leg, day, week, and/or month. We always get the greater of. For instance, last month I FAR blocked 67 hours. I was paid for 110 hours based on our rigs. We are also guaranteed 12 days off a month, have a commuter policy, 75 hour min guarantee for line and reserve pilots, and of course our trip and duty rigs (which "lead" the industry). That's what I can think of off the top of my head without the contract/TA in front of me. What does Mesaba offer that is "leading the industry"?
All I hear from most people is that "my airline is 'da bestest". If it is, prove it with hard factual data. I would be willing to bet that you simply have some areas that are better and some that are worse....just like every other similar airline.

 

[LivinDaDream]

AWACoff,

Since the attorney that negotiated your contract is the same one that negotiated our contract, perhaps she's an expert.

She was asked this question recently and the response was that they are almost equal in workrules. While your rigs are industry leading, the impact has been diminished by some of the formulas that are applied. We have a 4hour min day and you have a 3 hour min day. Our retirement passes yours by 1% of final earnings. If your schedule is built to 95 hour cap, you are only guaranteed 12 days off, we get 15 off with a 94 hour cap.

All and all, the work rules are a push.

Our Captain pay is higher across the board with higher annual increases than ARW. Our FO pay rates are currently lower but due to higher annual increases will pass you on the 50 seat rate.

Our contract will also be amendable 2 full years ahead of ARW.

All of this and United knocking on the door for more concessions. While I respect the hell out of you guys and you achieved a grear contract. Our's is pretty dang good too.

 

[SSDD]

So let me get this straight. A while back a lot of people, including Mesaba, ripped the "non union scumbags" at Skywest for signing a temporary 18 month agreement. Now these guys are ready to sign a 5 year agreement that's about the same as Skywest and they're thinking its ok?

BTW Skywest has about the same QOL rules, plus quarterly bonuses and profit sharing.

Its a lot tougher when your own job is at stake, isn't it?

 

[othello]

"BTW Skywest has about the same QOL rules, plus quarterly bonuses and profit sharing."

This is true: currently Skywest is about as good as anyone, pay rules and QOL. However Skywest is not working under a binding contract. I don't know the exact term i- t was explained by our lawyer today at the roadshow. Basicaly an agreement between the pilots and managment "that is subject to change at the will of the management." Just ask the new hires about that who thought they were going to get paid during training.

I have many friends at Skywest and would work there if given the chance, but when talking about there contract you must put an * by it. All is well as long as the pilots and management continue to get along, but watch out for the day they do not see eye to eye.

 

[flyn96]

have a commuter policy, 75 hour min guarantee for line and reserve pilots, and of course our trip and duty rigs (which "lead" the industry). That's what I can think of off the top of my head without the contract/TA in front of me. What does Mesaba offer that is "leading the industry"?


all of the above except the rigs however you can consider the 4 day min a rig

 

[g159av8tor]

Guys,

It's all about the rigs and soft money. Arguing over $0.75 - 1.25 / hour (about 2%) is wasted effort if you have the rigs. At ACA, as a 3rd year FO, I will make $45-46 in 2004 because of the soft money and contractual pay rules. Take a long and hard look at this part of the TA. Ask questions if you don't understand the legal-ease.

Tailwinds and good luck...

 

[XJslave]

As a former Mesaba pilot now at AWAC I have a question for the the Mesaba folks. I keep seeing you guys say the the retirement is better than AWAC's. Maybe I'm missing something, but when I looked at the summary of the TA it look like they just increased the match on your 401K. Is this true? At AWAC the company puts money in our 401K even if we don't put anything in it.

 

[surplus1]

Our work rules lead the industry! I repeat OUR WORK RULES LEAD THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!

I'm not criticizing your TA nor am I suggesting how you should vote.

However, I've read your summary and I've seen the "presentation" that was used in your road shows. In those two documents, I failed to notice how you determined that your "work rules lead the industry." If you would take the time to tell me how you made that determination I would be grateful. Is there something in the full text that is hidden in the presentation?

Work rules give you quite a bump in paychecks. So when you all talk about >>>>> Comair making $1-3 dollar more an hour than a Mesaba pilot ask them what pay is protected when a trip is cancelled, Ask about CDO's, ask about minimum pay garantee, ask about a minimum pay day, ask them what kind of scope protection they have, ask about training on the back side of the clock, ask about retirement, ask about jumpseats.

You got my attentions with that so, for the sake of conversation, I decided to take a look and compare.

1) I don't agree with your "$1-3 dollars more an hour. I can't consider your turboprop rates because we do not have any turboprops, so I went to the jets. I compared your DOS+4 rates (highest in your contract - 4 yrs from now (2008), with CMR's 6/'05 rates (highest in our contract - it's amendable in '06) and this is what I got.

MSA 60-69 pax jet CA / CMR CRJ 70 CA
1. 65.48 ..........................69.32 = + 3.84
5. 73.71 ..........................78.32 = + 4.61
10. 85.46 ........................92.86 = + 7.40
15. 99.06 .......................108.12 = + 9.06
18.104.24 .......................118.22 = + 13.98

FO's
1. 25.97 ............................ 24.45 = - 1.52
2. 31.14 ............................ 42.89 = + 11.75
5. 38.35 ............................ 46.99 = + 8.64
8. 41.91 ............................ 51.49 = + 9.58

MSA 40-59 pax jet CA / CMR CRJ 50/44/40

1. 61.14 ............................. 63.02 = + 1.88
5. 68.81 ............................. 71.20 = + 2.39
10. 79.78 ........................... 82.91 = + 3.12
15. 92.49 ...........................100.00 = +7.51
18. 101.06 .........................105.55 = +4.49

FO's
1. 25.97 .............................. 24.45 = - 1.52
2. 31.14 .............................. 38.85 = +7.71
5. 38.35 .............................. 42.56 = +4.21
8. 41.91 .............................. 46.64 = + 4.73

Remember, that's comparing your 2008 rates with our 2005 rates, and except for new hire pay, we are ahead of you by a lot more than $1-3/hr. If we compare your DOS rates to our 6/04 rates its pretty much the same pattern, and in some cases the differences are even greater. Your top of the list rate for the Avro is more than $20/hr less than our CRJ 70 and your FO rates average about $7.50/hr less. New hire is yours at $0.58/hr more. When you call it $1-3/hr difference I think somebody's exaggerating a whole lot.

Mesaba pilots, by far, blew away the competion with work rules and scope.

Hmmm. I guess we weren't included in the "competition". I'll agree you blew away MES and some others, but I don't think you blew away Comair. Your scope is better, but you're an independent, not a subsidiary. Again, I'm not being a critic, I just don't think you need to exaggerate.

We have greater of scheduled or actual - eqial, premium pay that is better than yours, displacement pay/rules that are better than yours, rigs that are better than yours, min day equal to yours, CDO rules the equivalent of yours, training section equal or better, perdiem better, deadhead better, retirement on top of the 401K and better, vacation accrual equal, sick leave equal, moving similar, training better, filling of vacancies equal or better, guarantee equal, days off better, accomodations equal, reserve rules equal or better, scheduling arguably better, hours of service better than yours. And our contract is 3 years old. How did you come to the conclusion that your work rules are "industry leading"?

At first my vote was a no, But now knowing the facts I changed it to an absolute YES.

If your TA satisfies your needs, by all means vote for it. I don't expect you to vote on the basis of what is best for us. I just wish the union wouldn't spin these things.

When agreemests like this one have forced us to make concessions, perhaps it will be easier to compare contracts. In the meantime, its apples and oranges.

For instance in comparing your TA with ARW, you are comparing a new contract to one that has been gutted by concessions. ARW's contract was better than Comair's before they decided to take concessions for the benefit of United (a move that I think was foolhardy).

 

[bigbob]

TA

I must vote NO for this TA.