Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Mesaba T/A FACTS

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

XJXJXJ

Active member
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Posts
39
DON"T FALL FOR RUMORS, HERE ARE THE FACTS !

Pay

Yes this is not what we were aiming for. It is however an increase (5.1% to 10.6% for CAs and 13.4% to 23.9% for FOs). We tried to split the FO rates but simply did not have the leverage to do so. We did increase what was a low combined 34 seat turboprop rate for all FOs to a middle 50 seat Turbo Jet rate. Is it enough, that is for our membership to decide.

We did get an average of 3% annual increases (2% DOS +1, 2% DOS +2, 4% DOS +3, 4% DOS+4). This is 1.2% higher than the industry average. This 3% average increase allows us to move up through the pack toward the top throughout our contract, not fall behind (please refer to the pay charts in the T.A. Powerpoint Presentation).

As for the Pinnacle piece, yes it is true, for 8 months Pinnacle’s 50 seat rate is around 1% higher than our rate, in an airplane we do not fly. And in 2005 we are around 2% higher, 2006 5% higher, etc. One thing you need to look at is the overall contract. With the difference in our work rules alone (block or better, trip guarantee, and min day) we are paid 8%-10% higher than Pinnacle.

Min Day & Rigs

Yes we did not get rigs. We tried for look forward and look back rigs and we could not get them. Looking at our peers who have rigs, look back rigs are the most common. When we costed the rigs with our schedules on a look back basis the gain us less than 0.5% and in many cases they added no money to a pilot’s paycheck. We did achieve a look forward minimum day of 4:00. When we costed this, it added 2%-3% to a pilot’s W-2 on a scheduled line only; it is hard to predict a percentage increase based on integration and premium pay/junior manning, as it will vary for each pilot, but it could net a large increase based on a 6 hour min day for premium pay.

Retirement

Our retirement package is far from a failure. We costed hundreds of combinations of front loading and end loading the plans. When comparing other Retirement Plans that front load, we saw they did not achieve a higher value in the end, because the pay rates that F.O.’s and junior Captains are paid throughout the industry. Compounding on 3% of $30k for 30 years is not nearly as valuable as compounding 12.5% of $90k for 10 years. By setting up the retirement plan, making larger enhancements to the later years cost less and got us much more money for retirement. With a modest 5% average market return for 30 years our plan will allow you to retire at age 60 with 55% of our final average earning every year for the rest of our lives. This puts us at the top of our peer group, above ARW, ACO, PCL, EGL only being exceeded by Comair by 3%.

Retro Pay

This is retro pay. It is not 100% retro pay, but it is on an average 82% retro pay. We went 19 months past our amendable date. If you total the raises you missed to get us to the rates in our TA, that would be 100% retro pay. We were not able to achieve 100%, but we did get close (82.4%-91.3%).

Scheduling Provisions

We made leaps in the scheduling section. The consolidation of CDOs into pure CDO lines, should reduce CDOs and increase the days off for regular line holders. We made reserve lines biddable in the bid package allowing a reserve pilot the ability to use his seniority to enhance his quality of life. We improved out trip displacement provision and improved our inviolate days. In addition, there is now language that forces the Company to post all available open time until 48 hours prior to the trip and there is also a provision that allows a pilot that is Junior Assigned to opt to have the trip remain in open time until 6 hours prior to the trip.

Impact on the industry

How does this TA impact the industry? I have had my nose in every contract for the last 3 years. I know all of them well enough to know this TA as an overall package keeps us in the top quarter of the pack. When you look at not just the wages but the work rules, retirement, job security, training and testing and every other provision we have, we are not under cutting anyone. In fact we stopped a real threat to every pilot contract out there, Big Sky.

Big Sky’s contract is 20% to 30% lower than ours. They were bidding on every bit of flying they could get there hands on. Next time you bump into a Comair pilot ask them who they would be more concerned about; Mesaba with our TA that is not as high as theirs, but with start up costs are more expensive to do Delta flying, or Big Sky who’s contract is cheap enough to absorb the start up costs and still undercut every regional airline in the US. Our scope stopped Big Sky from under cutting virtually every airline in the industry. We protected our jobs and others. I think the TA’s Job Security provisions are the best in the regional industry. We captured our holding company and bound them to our contract. If they want to start up another company and grow outside the NWA family, they have to do it with our pilots under the terms of our contract. Not having scope in our last contracted costed our pilots LOA 15, we will never again be put in that position.

This TA has enhancement in every area. Are the enhancements enough? That’s for the 844 pilots at Mesaba to decide. I am not trying to sell this TA to anyone. All I ask is you get the facts and ignore the rumors you hear in the crew rooms. If you have any questions about the TA call one of your reps, MEC officers or call me. If after you hear the facts you still want to vote no, I’ll dial the phone for you to cast your vote, because it is important the each and every pilot vote (Yes or No) on this T.A.
 
Do you really know your contract versus

Big Sky's.

1) 2:1 Duty rig

2) 3.95:1 Trip Rig

3) 4.41 Garnt. for Junior Manning at 130 % of block rate. w/ 3.0 Grant. for the second day at 130%, or block at the 130% rate, which ever is more.

4) cancellation pay for any reason

5) 72 hour garnt. for a 28 day bid(13 bids per year), which comes to 78 hr garnt. on a 12 month year. (even for Reserve lines)

6) premuim pay for picking up trips w/ less than 72 hours from departure time at 115% of block rate.

So I guess 4.0 hours garnt. is a drop in the bucket...
especially if you only have a 12 hour duty day with only 4.0 hours of flying. A BSA pilot would get 6.0 hours pay for the same work.
At BSA, a 8.0 hour duty day is 4.0 pay for duty rig.

Just the Facts!

So is BSA contract really that bad?

Oh and if your MEC said they offered BSA the oppurtunity to join the Mesaba Pilot group seniority list. It was a total lie or misleading. No such offer was ever formally made. Only shop talk.

PS
What good does it do to try to scope BSA, if Mesaba is scoped themselves to only flying NW airlink. My understanding is Mesaba is just limiting themselves by scoping BSA from future growth. Now BSA will really be a thorn in the side.
What about NW's shares in Pinnicale being sold. Are they no longer scoped? Are they the future for growth now? Is Mesaba only going to be in props now?
 
Last edited:
Know the contract?



Big Sky:
1) 2:1 Duty rig

2) 3.95:1 Trip Rig

OK, you got us there. We have no rigs in the TA.

Big Sky:
3) 4.41 Garnt. for Junior Manning at 130 % of block rate. w/ 3.0 Grant. for the second day at 130%, or block at the 130% rate, which ever is more.

Well, in the new TA XJ pilots who get junior assigned will get 6:00 of credit, minimum, for everyday they are JA. All JA are paid at 150% of pay rate (hence the 6:00 from our 4:00 min day) min day or block, which ever is higher.

Big Sky:
4) cancellation pay for any reason

We've had trip guarantee since our '92 contract I believe.

Big Sky:
5) 72 hour garnt. for a 28 day bid(13 bids per year), which comes to 78 hr garnt. on a 12 month year. (even for Reserve lines)

XJ guarantee remains at 75 hours/bid period for this TA, and yes that has and will continue to include reserves.

Big Sky:
6) premuim pay for picking up trips w/ less than 72 hours from departure time at 115% of block rate.

XJ Premium pay is 150% of pay rate. Under the TA nearly all open trips must be placed in 'open time' available to all pilots after schedule construction. A pilot can pick up open time, for premium pay, at any point. All additional duty periods added after final schedules come out is at premium pay. Furthermore, a pilot junior assigned to a trip can request that the company keep the trip in open time untill six hours prior to the trip, to make the trip available for someone to volunteer for the flying.

PS
What good does it do to try to scope BSA, if Mesaba is scoped themselves to only flying NW airlink. My understanding is Mesaba is just limiting themselves by scoping BSA from future growth

Not really, the company is free to pursue any flying, as long as all planes with more than 19 seats are flown with XJ seniority list pilots. Nothing is stopping the company from setting up a new subsidiary to seek opportunities outside the red-tail family. Additionally, it is possible that the airlink agreement could be amended to allow Mesaba Aviation to fly for an outside carrier, as Pinnacle will be able to do in the future.

What about NW's shares in Pinnicale being sold. Are they no longer scoped? Are they the future for growth now? Is Mesaba only going to be in props now?

Actually, I think this is great for Mesaba, as NWA had no incentive to give growth to anyone other than PCL while they owned them and planned an IPO. Now that only hold an interest (as they do in MAIR) it is more likely that XJ will see growth. Also, having a single 50 seat jet operator, who is going into negotiations, is not in NWA's best interests, I think we will see this change in the near future. And just to make a point, Mesaba is not currently only in props. The market for turbo-props will be around for a long time, and I hope XJ will continue to monopolize the red-tail turbo-prop feed, as I also hope the Avro will be around unless/until the NWA pilots allow its replacement with a more efficient 70 seat airplane.

So by my count only two of your six points are clearly in favor of Big Sky. At best monthly/bid guarantee is a push as 78 hours of your pay is less than 75 hours of the TA's rates. As far as the other two, the rigs, our negotiators costed rigs, and they added very little (like .5%) to earnings while the min day added like 2-3% to earnings based on sample schedules. So for us, min day is more $$, but I would prefer rigs since I see them as being more effective at improving schedules, which is the ultimate goal.
 
I agree rig improves schedules and that is the reason we added it to our contract. But Honestly, It did not work!

SO, I can see where 6:00 would be better than rig. Also Less to keep track of.

That sounds to be better in the long run!

I will say this, I may have been miss informed on the highlights of your TA. That is why this forum is useful. (Minus all the FlameBait)

I know that most could care less about BSA now that the TA is being voted on, but if it is true that BSA interest are also considered for growth of Mesaba, I would consider the combining of list. It would be ridiculous not too.

I would love to see the full agreement sometime so I could be more educated on MSA's agreement versus BSA's.

FlyingAggie
 
Well, the results are in on VARS... 66% voted IN FAVOR of the TA, 34% against. Looks like it passed.

All I can say is congratulations on having a new contract after being out for so long. All of us over at PCL had hoped for more, but we'll just have to dig in that much harder starting in '05 to get where we have to be...
 
Lear70 said:
we'll just have to dig in that much harder starting in '05 to get where we have to be...


You can say that again!! **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**!
 
DTWFO, Lear70

I hope you guys do not only reach our new contract in2005, but pass us. From looking at what you have now it will be a struggle just to catch up in alot of areas. For one your section for newhires in training is three contracts behind what we have. A good starting point would be to pay your pilots and give them a hotel room and company I.D. / benefits when they start class.

I do wish you PCL pilots the best of luck passing mesaba's contract and giving us some thing to reach for in 2009.

But you do have your work cut out for you.
 
You are totally right about us having our work cut out for us. And today it just got much harder. Now that you're one of the lowest bidders for CRJ rates you should be getting a lot of them. Congrats!
 
Yes, that is right, we now have one of the lowest payscales for 44-50 seat jets. Funny thing is, we don't got none (as they say in MEM). I wonder why 129 jets went to PCL? Oh, I forgot, they are nearly the lowest paid jet pilots as well. At least I get paid the first day of work and did not fork over 10 grand just to walk in the door.
 
DTWFO,

Just remember that rates aren't everything. This is simply a situation where you have to step back and look at the contract with a wide-angle lens. In addition, exactly how soon do you expect XJ to start picking up CRJ's? Seems to me that PCL has many more to take delivery of before there's even a hint that XJ will get any. In my humble opinion, our Saabs aren't going anywhere soon. By the time XJ has enough CRJ's to make a difference, it will be time for us to negotiate a new contract and new pay rates.

Thanks for your support and I hope to walk alongside you when you and yours are undoubtedly forced to walk the line.

MM
 
I think DTWFO is just suffering from little penis syndrome......Nice job Mesaba, don't let the chumps on this board eat at you. It's YOUR contract....not theirs........BE PROUD!!!
 
sf3boy said:
Yes, that is right, we now have one of the lowest payscales for 44-50 seat jets. Funny thing is, we don't got none (as they say in MEM). I wonder why 129 jets went to PCL? Oh, I forgot, they are nearly the lowest paid jet pilots as well. At least I get paid the first day of work and did not fork over 10 grand just to walk in the door.

Do you really think that Mesaba will never operate a CRJ? I think that is a little naive to say the least. It's all about who is the cheapest to NWA. Just remember we are one of the lowest paid jet pilots because we signed our contract before we had the planes as well......hmmmm. And by the way, I didn't pay 10 thousand dollars to work for Pinnacle.
 
10 grand just to walk in the door.

I didn't know that was part of the deal either..

Anyone have any ideas about the pro's and con's of NWA having 2 crj operators, i imagine there are some. Just wondering what people thought
 
Yea,

They will be in negotiations again before they see real growth.
The same Sabb FO on reserve that got paid in training will be still be on reserve 4 years from now, if he or she keeps their job. Meanwhile that date of hire( late 2000) at PCL has made about
$50,000 more since then. In 4 years that will be about $170,000 total difference in W2.

The junior boys thought they would get CRJs. Yea you will with a 1 for 1 swap. Years boys .....Years before you see real growth. Have fun. Brag baby brag. SEEEE YAAAAA Mesa ba
 
Mother NW will give XJ CRJ's or ERJ's before it is over with. That is the way they play the game. I sure they(NW management) would smile to read this board and see the arguments between XJ and 9E.:)
 
The fact that it will likely be a while before new jets show up is all the more reason that good t-prop rates were necessary. I'm really enjoying the b--ching here. You'd think mesaba pilots deliberately sabotaged everyone. Get a life people.

Newsouth: go fly your CRJ and try practicing the art of silence.
And enjoy your crappy work rules.
 
You would not know what silence is in that loud a** prop, boy.

I only speak the truth. Can't deal with it? I can't deal with that noise your piece makes when you are tailgating. Wanna compare W2s Mr. Proudest Pilot group to ever eat crow.
 
My bait draws the predicted outcome.

What we have here:

Mr. Newsouth feels that he is a superior human being due to the higher true airspeed of the aircraft he flies, and the fact that it lacks props.

First of all, I do not fly the saab. Since you wish to make a 'whose is bigger' argument over this, I will simply say that my jet is bigger than yours. But that shouldn't matter, should it?

Ahhh, but for YOU it does! I am guessing you were not hireable at mesaba, and feel bitterness toward them because of it.

Mr. Newsouth doesn't really care about the contract. This is just another place for him to crow about his 'jet pilot' status.

Put down the hand lotion, junior and observe how people who are older, wiser, and further along in their career than you act.

The boys in the majors don't go around demeaning other pilot's aircraft, do they? This just demonstrates pettiness, frustration, and insecurity. Go get a 'top gun' hat from sporty's and wear it out to the bar. It will make you feel better.

And W-2's? Dream on.
 
Last edited:
Hey I saw him, yea, it had to be him. Top Gun hat and the black leather jacket with the stripes on the outside. Yea, that's the ticket. He also tried to pick up the waitress with the "I'm a jet pilot" line. Shot Down!!!! Ouch!
 
The FACT is the pilots wasted a lot of money on union dues!!!
 
mesaba2425 said:
The FACT is the pilots wasted a lot of money on union dues!!!

You talk alot but never make a point.

This is characteristic of a disturbing trend among the uneducated and illiterate citizens of our nation.
 
I understand that good scope was a win for the Mesaba group, but can someone explain to me how it will be different now after this new TA. I know Mesaba cannot grow Big Sky now at the expense of Mesaba pilots, but doesn't that now doom Big Sky to loosing money constantly for MAIR?? Wasn't that one of the issues prior to the TA? How is Big Sky not going to be a total money siphon of money for MAIR now? I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I just don't understand it. They weren't flying your routes/planes before so what are they supposed to do now? Thanks.
 
Raise or lower the bar?

The last three contracts for “express carries” to be singed are Chautauqua, Skyway, and Mesaba. How did the last of these three compare to the two previous contracts signed before them? They may not be the best or the worst contracts but these in order they occurred are the most current to be signed. Industry and economy conditions change but these contracts where signed in a relative parity of time. One carrier Chautauqua is in a growth phase. Second carrier’s parent was close to filing for bankruptcy. Third carrier Mesaba is closely aligned with a major that is stable and is in neither a growth nor shrinking state. Scope, pay, rigs, and retirement where the strike issues of Mesaba. Below are comparisons in those areas they felt most important. As you can see compared to the previous contracts singed right before there’s they held the line or surpassed it. First words are Comair, Air Wisconsin. But those are not passed in relative environment. Future or the pasts are not today. As a PCL pilot I of course would have liked more for our brothers and sisters. I feel most of the PCL pilots wanted to see XJ succeed just because they wanted to ride on the coat tails and not have to do the dirty work them self’s to get what they want. People like NEWSOUTH and Mesaba2425 are disgusting. Quite frankly im embarrassed to have to work with someone like NEWSOUTH. He does not represent an informed pilot. With PCL having FO s with four years seniority now the days of fast gains are gone. Which also is a good time to state that the GIA people did not PFT to PCL. As with anything you get what you negotiate for. Did United negotiate it self to bankruptcy? Did Mesa negotiate for growth? Can we compare United - Atlantic Coast – Mesa – Fedex - Cap Air all the same way? Did a Mesaba pilot take a step backwards for himself or a step forward? Are you as an outsider scared to be the one that has to take a huge step forward? Do you have your pilot group unified at your own property to take that leap? Each airline has its own Fee Per Departure, its own CASM, its own RASM, and bottom line income. Can Skyway pay out a 8 million dollar increase contract just as easy as Southwest can? Is an increase in Mesaba’s contract costs to the company of 8 million a year and 44 over the length of the deal not a gain? I’m not trying to promote or push their contract just telling some facts. I as a PCL pilot supported XJ before there negotiations, during, and now even after. This BULL of fighting amongst ourselves because a chart says .30 cents less for 8 months in a phantom aircraft is as silly as the game that NWA played with the Avros. You who lower yourselves to taking a dump on each other over something you are not evening willing to do for yourself is absolutely pathetic. Especially after having either for one asked the other for support or second you will be relying on the other for support soon. The contract is signed in. Its over the conversation of should or could have. If you’re up next to negotiate concentrate on doing what you need to so you can get what you want. Just like J.C. Lawson said “DON’T LOOK BACK”

Scope:
Chautauqua has got scope restrictions on parent, company, subsidiaries, and future subsidiaries. (Does not include Wexford)
Skyway has got scope restrictions on company, subsidiaries, and future
Mesaba has got scope on parent, company, subsidiaries, and future

Pay (Due to Skyway and Chautauqua not having any 30 seat turboprops or 70 seat jets the only scale all three have uncommon is 50 turbojet rates):
First Year FO:
Chautauqua 2004: $21.00; 2007: $22.95
Skyway 2004: $17.57; 2007: $19.45
Mesaba 2004: $23.08; 2007: $24.97

Five Year FO:
Chautauqua 2004: $33.50; 2007: $36.62
Skyway 2004: $26.19; 2007: $34.86
Mesaba 2004: $34.76; 2007: $36.87

Five Year CA:
Chautauqua 2004: $62.29; 2007: $66.99
Skyway 2004: $52.23; 2007: $61.17
Mesaba 2004: $61.15; 2007: $66.17

Ten Year CA:
Chautauqua 2004: $71.39; 2007: $78.03
Skyway 2004: $60.16; 2007: $70.91
Mesaba 2004: $73.02; 2007: $79.01

Pay Protection:
Chautauqua: Line guarantee if company meets performance goal (segment pay)
Skyway: Block or better
Mesaba: Line guarantee, Block or better

Rigs:
Chautauqua: None
Skyway: None
Mesaba: Min day 4 hours (look forward)

Min Day off
Chautauqua: Line 12; Reserve 11
Skyway: Line 10; Reserve 10: (2005 both go to 11)
Mesaba: Line 11; Reserve 11

Retirement:
Chautauqua: The Company will provide retirement benefits (i.e., 401(k)) to all pilots. A pilot whose longevity is six (6) years or less, the Company will match one hundred percent (100%) of the first two and one-half percent (2.5%) contributed by the pilot. A pilot whose longevity is more than six (6) years and less than thirteen (13) years, the company will match one hundred percent (100%) of the first four percent (4%) contributed by the pilot. A pilot whose longevity is thirteen (13) years or longer, the Company will match one hundred percent (100%) of the first six percent (6%) contributed by the pilot.
Skyway: Beginning with the effective date of this Agreement, pilots will continue to participate in the Skyway Airlines, Inc., d/b/a Midwest Connect, 401(k) Plan (“the 401(k) Plan”), with a Company matching contribution of 2.5% of the pilot’s salary deferrals up to the first ten percent (10%) of compensation. The Company matching contributions will be made for each payroll period, with payment made to the plan within five (5) business days of each payday.
Mesaba:
Years of Service Company Match % Match Salary ReductionContributions Each Plan Year Up To
1 but less than 6 25% 6% of eligible earnings
6 but less than 11 50% 8% of eligible earnings
11 but less than 16 75% 9% of eligible earnings
16 but less than 20 100% 10% of eligible earnings
20 or more 125% 10% of eligible earnings
 
Last edited:
I'm gonna puke if I hear the "economy" excuse again.

If I'm not mistaken, Mesaba has a fee for departure arrangement which guarantees a profit. The economy is good, Mesaba makes a profit, the economy is bad, Mesaba makes a profit.

It's not the economy that prevented the union or the pilot group from getting a Comair/AWAC contract that was promised.
 
Economy doesn’t make a difference when it’s a fixed fee? But if the company only makes 15 million a quarter and each work group keeps eating away at that and it turns to a loss each quarter where does the money come from? The mechanics at XJ also want wage increases. The ramp wants to unionize. Where does the money come from for their wages? XJ doesn’t have an agreement like 9E that gets a profit margin that’s able to flex due to increase costs. Comair being wholly owned also has a bank account tied to Delta. Yields are down from when Comair and Air Wisconsin signed there deals. Truth or fiction?
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom