Mesaba pilots: To flow or not to flow?

[Butters]

Just curious what you guys think. Worth it or not to go to NWA via the flow?

Feel free to add to the list or make your own. Just trying to think of all possible angles to this. As for me, I'm 8 years here, soon to be on the CRJ, and undecided on the flow.

Pros (why go to NWA)
- Better planes
- More stable future???
- More $$$ over the whole career
- Eventual better QOL???
- XJ falling apart

Cons (why stay at XJ)

- BIG paycut for a few years (at least from CRJ pay)
- Flying with grumpy DC-9 capts
- Possibility of merger???
- Contract not great right now
- Commute/reserve possibility for a while
- Good company match on 401(k)

 

[flap operator]

What gives you the impression XJ is falling apart? I say flow... especially if you're relatively young. While the job may not be what it used to be, it's still better, in many ways that being at the regional level. No matter how senior you are at XJ.


FO

 

[PCL_128]

Unless you're nearing the end of your career, take the flow. Passing up an opportunity to flow to mainline just so you can stay at one of the feeder carriers that NWA whipsaws like mad is crazy.

 

[fowingman]

i have to agree with pcl 128

 

[prtyprtyprncss]

All depends on where you are in the list at XJ...I posted a while back that I didn't see many folks in the top of the list taking the flow...hacked off one of the tools..I mean one of the guys on the forum really bad...don't get me wrong, there are folks at NW who love (okay, like) NW...but time will tell whether I'm right or wrong...but for the senior guys and girls at XJ who have maybe 15 years to go (to age 60)...taking a $70/hr. cut and going to the bottom of the list...if you graph the pay cut and the time taken to recoup the losses in salary alone, the lines go sideways a long way before (IF) they ever cross...not to mention lifestyle changes that come with the bottom of the list at NW...just my take on it...anyway for senior guys XJ's not that bad if you wallet is happy and your ego doesn't demand you fly for a "major"...

 

[Butters]

What gives you the impression XJ is falling apart?

In no particular order:

- Saab fleet manager doesn't know the company, has never flown the plane, is not typed on the plane, and isn't getting trained on the plane

- Ditching chief pilots for "base managers"

- Street captains with no 121 experience (yes, it is happening as we speak)

- 1500 hour captains

- 300 hour f/o's

- Big spike in training failure rate

- Contract instructors who are horrible

- Pan Am doing our CRJ 200 sim training

- D.O. would wants to fire people at the drop of a hat

I could go on. It doesn't mean it can't or won't get better. There's just a lot wrong right now.

By the way, no offense to street captains or low-time upgrades. I'm not trying to pick a fight. It's a good opportunity for those who took it but it is really cutting our experience margin especially in the crappy winter weather. Street captains and 300 hour f/o's are not a good combo. But it is our reality.

 

[DoinTime]

In no particular order:

- Saab fleet manager doesn't know the company, has never flown the plane, is not typed on the plane, and isn't getting trained on the plane

- Ditching chief pilots for "base managers"

- Street captains with no 121 experience (yes, it is happening as we speak)

- 1500 hour captains

- 300 hour f/o's

- Big spike in training failure rate

- Contract instructors who are horrible

- Pan Am doing our CRJ 200 sim training

- D.O. would wants to fire people at the drop of a hat

Ahhh yes....

I remember watching all of these same things play out at Pinnacle soon after we were purchased by NW. Its like someone got some old VCR tapes out and is reminiscing.

Batten down the hatches guys, your in for a long ride!

 

[jetflier]

Just curious what you guys think. Worth it or not to go to NWA via the flow?

Feel free to add to the list or make your own. Just trying to think of all possible angles to this. As for me, I'm 8 years here, soon to be on the CRJ, and undecided on the flow.

Pros (why go to NWA)
- Better planes
- More stable future???
- More $$$ over the whole career
- Eventual better QOL???
- XJ falling apart

Cons (why stay at XJ)

- BIG paycut for a few years (at least from CRJ pay)
- Flying with grumpy DC-9 capts
- Possibility of merger???
- Contract not great right now
- Commute/reserve possibility for a while
- Good company match on 401(k)

OUCH ! That hurt!

Only the yes voters are grumpy, cause they know the $hitty contract is their fault! The rest of us are happy campers

 

[SEVEN]

Just curious what you guys think. Worth it or not to go to NWA via the flow?

Feel free to add to the list or make your own. Just trying to think of all possible angles to this. As for me, I'm 8 years here, soon to be on the CRJ, and undecided on the flow.

Pros (why go to NWA)
- Better planes
- More stable future???
- More $$$ over the whole career
- Eventual better QOL???
- XJ falling apart

Cons (why stay at XJ)

- BIG paycut for a few years (at least from CRJ pay)
- Flying with grumpy DC-9 capts
- Possibility of merger???
- Contract not great right now
- Commute/reserve possibility for a while
- Good company match on 401(k)

Flow baby flow! In 10 years you'll be sitting left seat in the Dreamliner making 200k with 20 days off.

 

[CFIfornow]

Flow baby flow! In 10 years you'll be sitting left seat in the Dreamliner making 200k with 20 days off.

Ask the ten year guys at NW how that's working out for them.

 

[XJohXJ]

Nonetheless, flow.

The standard for how much XJ stinks at any given time is how much NWA stinks. NWA stinks less than XJ. Flow.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Also keep in mind that if NWA decides to replace the DC-9 with the E195 after May 31st which is very possible, the payscale on that plane as an FO is less than half of what a CRJ900 captain would make. You could be stuck in that FO position for 5 years or more.

 

[Occam's Razor]

OUCH ! That hurt!

Only the yes voters are grumpy, cause they know the $hitty contract is their fault! The rest of us are happy campers

au contrare!

The "no" voters are the grumpy ones. [Note: Your post is Exhibit "A"] They choose to blame other pilots for their off-track expectations fulfillment, instead of management-friendly bankruptcy laws enforced by biased judges. Blaming someone who thinks instead of fumes has always been the easier course.

Show me a pi$$ed captain at NWA, and I'll show you someone who was a grumpy jerk well before Chapter 11.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Also keep in mind that if NWA decides to replace the DC-9 with the E195 after May 31st which is very possible, the payscale on that plane as an FO is less than half of what a CRJ900 captain would make. You could be stuck in that FO position for 5 years or more.

Please take this comment in the harshed way possible:

You're dumb.

Get back to work in your cubicle before I tell your boss you're misusing company property to post your tripe.

 

[xjhawk]

between occam and YPF I cannot remember which one ......anyways.....which one of you has the pulse of NWA? I can for sure tell you I will flow. For all of you at XJ, give up trying to get hired at NWA and bybassing the flow. They are interviewing and hiring a lot of less qualified people than what are at XJ and want to go over there. The thought I have about flowing, if you are 45 (or so) and are getting a good schedule at xj, are on one of the jets and are based in or near home. Do not flow. If your QOL is the way you like it now, do not flow. If you are like me, sitting on the bottom of the Saab list, and when I make it to the Jet list, I will be on the bottom of that list as well. It will be years before I see another weekend off at XJ, unless I want to stay on the saab. So its pretty much a given for me, I will flow. That is unless I go somewhere else (say SWA or united). Seniority is everything. I would say that 54 will flow this year, 108 every year there after if NWA is hiring. So given that the first 150 prob will not flow, that leaves the pilots who are mid seniority have the best chances at a flow while flowing is going well. After three years, who knows how it will look. In five years, ofcourse more retirements will be happening (age 65 rule).So if you can get somewhere in the next 5 years, your looking at a better career at the majors. Any ideas who will flow? I say 5% of the first 150 on the list will flow. after that the next 100 will be 25% then 50-75% there after. i cannot wiat for the unions list to come out.

 

[Limeyflyer]

In no particular order:

By the way, no offense to street captains or low-time upgrades. I'm not trying to pick a fight. It's a good opportunity for those who took it but it is really cutting our experience margin especially in the crappy winter weather. Street captains and 300 hour f/o's are not a good combo. But it is our reality.

The street captains that are in the first class of SCA's consist of 3 Pilots from Eagle, 1 furloughed Mesaba( he flew the saab/avro/and RJ) then went to Champion pilot, 1 Piedmont pilot, an 8000 hr freight dog, and 2 corp pilots. None of which are inexperienced by any means. Some do have 121 time, they all have way more time than the 3 month 1500 hr upgrade guys and girls. As for the non 121 street captains, they have plenty of cold weather Midwest, New England flying experience and are all well seasoned. Yes the 121 scene is new for some of us, but some of us have flown with the new 300 hr CFI's new F/O's that have never seen and actual instrument approach, or ice on the boots for the first time. Sure it is an added item on the workload factor, but I feel that we are qualified and we are all looking forward to being a part of this company. How are well trained pilots coming in to help you guys out when you need the pilots cutting your experience margin??? We know what has happened in the company, we respect what you have all been through with the furloughs, no one that I have seen in this group is coming in with a holier than thou attitude, just a positive attitude to work for a good company.

 

[XJohXJ]

Always a pleasure reading your posts, Limey.

Welcome.

 

[Limeyflyer]

Thanks Buddy

 

[Raskal]

Being in the same class as the limey bastard, I have to second his reply for the same reasons. The experience of the street captains should be the least of the concerns right now, and if you happen to run into one of us on the line, just ask, you will probably be pleasantly surprised at the experience levels. Everyone I know is anxious to talk to current captains, upgrades or otherwise.

In my class there is an upgrade I've gotten to know over the past couple of weeks. He openly admitted to having some of the same concerns as you while we were talking over lunch. I respected that a lot, and appreciated the chance to respond. Since then I think his concerns are mostly gone and in turn I've been able to learn some things about the job.

The training department changes/resignations over the coming LOA is what should be a hell of a lot bigger concern. The line the company has taken has caused a reaction that they probably didn't anticipate and will certainly cause more problems than street captains. With the amount of young new hires in the halls, I would be very concerned if all the experienced instructors leave and 6-months-out-of-UND-no-line-experienced people are teaching the kids. That's scary.

 

[MEL'ed]

I agree. The second class of SCA's is just as experienced and is looking forward to being another great addition to the family.