Mesaba MEC Gives Up!

[xjhawk]

i love that we gave them, and they admitted it, that we gave them a growth contract the last time we gave in.

Look at the writing on the wall, a strike will be deemed illegal and our union ALPA leaders, local and NAtional will bakc down for fear of going to jail. And the indistry will have the new lowest paid carrier in the nation. If i had the means, i would sue ALPA for all my dues back for misrepresentation....but even ALPA has better attorneys than i can provide.

So Mesaba will get rates that they ask for to survive with a 49 saab fleet, but the kicker is that in those rates there will be rates that are the lowest in the industry for 50 seat jets, oh...and those same rates will be through 110 seats. Yes, Mesaba will get 100's of new planes, and for you NWA guys and gals out there that that think we wil be happy about this you can F^&k off, its your ALPA that forced this to happen. I think the leaders at AlPA only care about big big jets..since the ones who control ALPA are the ones who would fly those big jets. Yes i am bitter, management is only taking advantage where we let them.

 

[Rossa]

Settle Down Ladies!!

Everyone knows we all are upset about what is going on, but some of you guys sound like babies. If ALPA sucks so bad, you should get involved and change it.
If we really are going to 49 SAABS, then there is no need to renegotiate ANYTHING but the SAAB rates - how could any Judge make us change the Jet rates after mngt has stated time and again that we are going to 49 SAABS. Changing the Jet rates is irrelevant! (At least according to what mngt has been stating)
The MAIR issue has nothing to do with XJ's bankruptcy, therefor the scope letter is in the words of the judge "not GERMANE to these proceedings". It is, in effect the elephant in the corner of the room which we can now choose to ignore!
If you want to help, email your reps and make sure that we don't change Jet rates, etc....., as these are irrelevant to a 49 SAAB world!! Let's box them in with the Judge's and their OWN words!!

 

[xjlifer]

Jingle pants will say we need the bottom feeder rates to "pursue other flying" as if that duece bag could find his a$$ from a hole in the ground.

 

[Dodge]

Rossa,

I would agree. I thought the same of the rates for all the aircraft we don't fly that is currently in the contract. Why did we negotiate a 19 seat TP pay scale? How about that 50 seat TJ scale? We had none of those at the time of signing. And why on earth did we negotiate a 55 seat TP rate?

The jet rates will be negotiated and they will be low.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Somebody can (and will) correct me if I am wrong, but it sounded like Duane Woerth was reading the eulogy for Mesaba tonight at ASA's family awareness dinner.

He began by honoring the brave pilots of Indy Air, who held the line against a failed business model and who would benefit from holding the line for the profession, despite the fact they lost their jobs.

He then went on to explain the horrible situation at Mesaba and said that they too would hold the line - that he would not sign any more concessionary contacts. That the industry has 20% too much capacity and strikes should be authorized, since the effect would be to reduce capacity.

When I got home and read my e-mail, I learn that Northwest's MEC passed a resolution 06-1 promoting a new alter ego to fly aircraft 51 seats and above.

Now isn't Mesaba barred from replacing the Avro's? Didn't the Northwest MEC previously indicate hands off anything below 70 seats?

It seems to me ALPA is prepared to help kill off a few airlines while transferring jobs to its preferred members. I'm guessing that Mesaba is on the short list and I would imagine Comair has a place on that list also (but ALPA is being more careful since that matter is in litigation).

My best wishes to you guys.... ALPA has not won a battle in a long while now and while in retreat it appears to be throwing out small jet pilots as it promotes even more alter ego airlines which will race to the bottom. As he did with CC Air, Duane is going to try to get his horse across the finish line first.

Duane Woerth still holds to the idea that small jet jobs are not real jobs, but stepping stones to a job as an "airline pilot." Only real "airline pilot" jobs warrant protection.

~~~^~~~

 

[xjhawk]

Everyone knows we all are upset about what is going on, but some of you guys sound like babies. If ALPA sucks so bad, you should get involved and change it.
If we really are going to 49 SAABS, then there is no need to renegotiate ANYTHING but the SAAB rates - how could any Judge make us change the Jet rates after mngt has stated time and again that we are going to 49 SAABS. Changing the Jet rates is irrelevant! (At least according to what mngt has been stating)
The MAIR issue has nothing to do with XJ's bankruptcy, therefor the scope letter is in the words of the judge "not GERMANE to these proceedings". It is, in effect the elephant in the corner of the room which we can now choose to ignore!
If you want to help, email your reps and make sure that we don't change Jet rates, etc....., as these are irrelevant to a 49 SAAB world!! Let's box them in with the Judge's and their OWN words!!

well, i sure hope you are right, for it seems to me that the judge is in the companies corner. That was the question i had from the beginning, why negotiate 50-110 seat rates if there are not going to be any coming? Why cancel our side letter with MAIR? But to me, it seems that we are not getting any support from ALPA national on the issue of sliding to the bottom. In my adult life i have never been down to 200 dollars in savings and no money in my checking accounts, living pay check to paycheck. This is coming from someone who has been a college student, a private in the army and a flight instructor. So i am saying, life is sucking at Mesaba and looks to only be getting worse, otherwisei think we might have a light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[FIRE ALPA]

Somebody can (and will) correct me if I am wrong, but it sounded like Duane Woerth was reading the eulogy for Mesaba tonight at ASA's family awareness dinner.

He began by honoring the brave pilots of Indy Air, who held the line against a failed business model and who would benefit from holding the line for the profession, despite the fact they lost their jobs.

He then went on to explain the horrible situation at Mesaba and said that they too would hold the line - that he would not sign any more concessionary contacts. That the industry has 20% too much capacity and strikes should be authorized, since the effect would be to reduce capacity.

When I got home and read my e-mail, I learn that Northwest's MEC passed a resolution 06-1 promoting a new alter ego to fly aircraft 51 seats and above.

Now isn't Mesaba barred from replacing the Avro's? Didn't the Northwest MEC previously indicate hands off anything below 70 seats?

It seems to me ALPA is prepared to help kill off a few airlines while transferring jobs to its preferred members. I'm guessing that Mesaba is on the short list and I would imagine Comair has a place on that list also (but ALPA is being more careful since that matter is in litigation).

My best wishes to you guys.... ALPA has not won a battle in a long while now and while in retreat it appears to be throwing out small jet pilots as it promotes even more alter ego airlines which will race to the bottom. As he did with CC Air, Duane is going to try to get his horse across the finish line first.

Duane Woerth still holds to the idea that small jet jobs are not real jobs, but stepping stones to a job as an "airline pilot." Only real "airline pilot" jobs warrant protection.

~~~^~~~

Duane is hard to follow, simply because he talks out of both sides of his face. I dont know how he thinks he's going to hold the line, when his boy Wychor proclaimed in the last MEC message that the end is near and that everyone should get their resumes together. This is all a big joke. I think it's already been decided who's carving up what, the rest of this crap is just theatrics. Spongebob, Foley, Wychor, and Woerthless can all have a drink together whens it's all over and toast their success.

www.geocities.com/firealpa/firealpa.html

 

[Lear70]

Don't worry. Pinnacle is probably right behind you.

They are having big dinners in both DTW and MSP this Thursday, the 16th, at 6:45 p.m. to discuss the future of our company, the RFP to Northwest (where we had to re-bid our own flying against everyone else), and we were urged to bring our families, dinner and free child care provided.

The history of this company is to ANNOUNCE openly when it's GOOD news, do it at the beginning of the week, and have a big meet and eat throughout the entire day in each hub so they can bask in the warmth and glow of employee happiness.

Meeting in the evening, after the close of the business day, at the end of the week, and promising only a 20 minute actual "presentation" in the middle of it sounds an awful lot like they're going to tell us we're losing quite a bit of our flying to someone else and they want to cushion the blown and try to urge people not to leave, that "we'll get through this and grow into something even bigger and better".

So at the rate we're going, BOTH airlines might end up with a mass exodus of the bottom 30% of the seniority list. Wouldn't THAT be amusing - ground 10% or so of Northwest's daily domestic departures because they yanked the rug out from under us. Would serve 'em right.

Good luck to everyone!

 

[Rossa]

Hey Lear,

Why would you guys not think that it would be good news?? I would think that bad news would be issued in a Mesaba-type way (Letter to employees on a Thurs/Fri, then let everyone stew over the weekend).
It seems unlikely to me that this would be bad news, then again good news would be....."we've won the bid...HOORAY.......but you...ahem.....ahem....have to take 20% pay cuts........Enjoy your dinner!!!"

Either way, you win....you lose! Same for us!

 

[Drill Sgt. Dad]

By Duane Woerthless signing off on concessionary CBAs in the first place started this whole mess. Three years later, now he decides it's time to stop it? I can't wait until his term is up, I hope he doesn't get another term. Or it won't be a race to the bottom, but a free fall.

 

[Lear70]

Why would you guys not think that it would be good news?? I would think that bad news would be issued in a Mesaba-type way (Letter to employees on a Thurs/Fri, then let everyone stew over the weekend).

Because that's not how this company works and, technically, they ARE doing it at the end of the week, on a Thursday night and I guarantee you they won't be in the office on Friday.

Most of us are of the opinion that it will be bad news, they will tell us how badly they need all of us to "give a little so we can continue to give you jobs", and do it right there with all our families to bug us about it when we leave.

It seems unlikely to me that this would be bad news, then again good news would be....."we've won the bid...HOORAY.......but you...ahem.....ahem....have to take 20% pay cuts........Enjoy your dinner!!!"

That's EXACTLY what they're going to do, except they're doing it by scaring us with job loss.... and by the way, Enjoy your dinner!

Either way, you win....you lose! Same for us!

BINGO!

 

[Dizel8]

"that he would not sign any more concessionary contacts"

If Woerthless said that, then I guess NWA and DAL can say buhbye as well, or are we talking two levels of representation, something ALPA always maintains they do not have?

Heck, at this point, y'all should just sign whatever Mair throws on the table, simply to piss of D'Wayne. (Not really, but it would almost be worth it just to see the look on his smug face) Oh well, maybe he will give you a salute like FlyI.

 

[DHPFLYN]

Woerthless Needs To Go

When will WOERTHLESS be out of office??? He has to be the worst thing alpa has ever seen. He works for Northwest and what a wonderful job he has done with his own company. You think he gives a crap about the regionals??? I think he should be voted out NOW !!!

GOOD LUCK FOR ALL YOU GUYS AT MESABA I HOPE SOMETHING WORKS OUT FOR YOU ALL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[AWACO]

ya I heard about the PNCL wine/dine....sounds interesting. I hope it aint all bad but remember if Comair passed it XJ/PNCL will. I really hope that does not happen as I would like to return to XJ someday but I wont do the job for less than I did before.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Duane is not in charge of approving anything when it comes down to the judge's decision. The provision of the railway labor act says that engaging in self help after a decision has been made is a crime, 6 months in jail/$20,000. If the judge is making the decision, he is representing the employee's, you have no choice, he made it for you. If the judge rules XJ takes a 20% paycut, you get a 20% paycut or quit, there are no other options. If the employee's could strike after a 1113 filing, it wouldn't even be in the bankruptcy laws.

 

[DetoXJ]

I'll log out next time. I didn't post that. Deleted.

 

[TinGoose1]

Another .

 

[XJTool]

VERY good point Rossa! You seem to be right on lately.

----NOT ONE CENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DoinTime]

Duane is not in charge of approving anything when it comes down to the judge's decision. The provision of the railway labor act says that engaging in self help after a decision has been made is a crime, 6 months in jail/$20,000. If the judge is making the decision, he is representing the employee's, you have no choice, he made it for you. If the judge rules XJ takes a 20% paycut, you get a 20% paycut or quit, there are no other options. If the employee's could strike after a 1113 filing, it wouldn't even be in the bankruptcy laws.

Your so full of sh*t YPF. You don't know the first thing about the RLA.

 

[XJ-spartacus]

Deleted. I think I got my point across.

Until the next time...."I'm Spartacus!"

 

[XJ-spartacus]

Deleted. Same as above.

-XJSpartacus

 

[Lear70]

Duane is not in charge of approving anything when it comes down to the judge's decision. The provision of the railway labor act says that engaging in self help after a decision has been made is a crime, 6 months in jail/$20,000. If the judge is making the decision, he is representing the employee's, you have no choice, he made it for you. If the judge rules XJ takes a 20% paycut, you get a 20% paycut or quit, there are no other options. If the employee's could strike after a 1113 filing, it wouldn't even be in the bankruptcy laws.

Where the hell do you get THAT information?

It is, by the way, COMPLETELY incorrect, as 'Time already mentioned.

You're talking about two completely different pieces of law. The 1113(c) provision of corporate bankruptcy law does indeed have a provision that prohibits the employees from taking job action against a judge's order, but it was NOT written for RLA employees.

The RLA very CLEARLY states that if the the contract is completely abrogated and they are being forced to work without a working contract in place, they are FREE TO ENGAGE IN SELF-HELP AT-WILL.

THIS is what's being challenged by Northwest and Mesaba management: the two laws don't work with each other, which one wins?

The judge overseeing Delta's bankruptcy, in regards to DAL pilots going on strike over a negative 1113(c) ruling, when management insisted that a job action would be illegal and they would request her to force them back to work, said POINT BLANK, "That's certainly something I'M not inclined to do, but that's not my jurisdiction", meaning SHE DIDN'T BELIEVE SHE HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT IN VIOLATION OF THE RLA.

We're in uncharted waters here, bubba. Don't go off the handle making statements THAT ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH WHAT ALPA ATTORNEYS HAVE PLANNED without the EXACT Federal Code to back them up. Makes you look like an idiot to pretty much everyone on here.

ya I heard about the PNCL wine/dine....sounds interesting. I hope it aint all bad but remember if Comair passed it XJ/PNCL will.

I wouldn't count on it. And, truth be told, Comair's rates and work rules AFTER concessions are still a crap-load better than ours. A good friend of mine is on the negotiating committee and he's basically said the Wilson Polling indicates in the high 90th percentile in support of STFD so that's exactly what they're committed to. Once I heard that I stopped most of the public questioning of our MEC leaders (except on communications issues where they still need work). If they disappoint me, I know where they live.

MY MEC SPEAKS FOR ME!

The only reason I mention all of this incidentally, is that recently I've seen a BIG increase in hostility from Mesaba pilots toward Pinnacle pilots and just wanted to point out that WE'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT!

I've walked the picket line with you guys before, I'll be happy to do it again!

Good luck to all of us!

 

[finnjl]

It is bad when regionals are competing with each other for flying....I think I read on this board at some time in the past that it is a race to the bottom....It is coming true.....we at the regionals are racing to the bottom. Mesaba is getting screwed, Pinnacle next, Pay cuts for everyone, lay off the guys at the majors, hire them back to work at regional pay rates, I wish there was some way our union could unite all the groups, so we do not have to compete against each other (Whipsaw) Until then we will see the major airline jobs go away and we as a pilot group will be making in the 60s as a captain for the rest of our careers working for a regional. Something needs to be done to save our careers. I am not happy about it.

 

[DetoXJ]

No worry Robert. I don't know you but I have read some of your ALPA posts. I'm with you and ready to walk.

 

[Lear70]

I wish there was some way our union could unite all the groups, so we do not have to compete against each other (Whipsaw) Until then we will see the major airline jobs go away and we as a pilot group will be making in the 60s as a captain for the rest of our careers working for a regional. Something needs to be done to save our careers. I am not happy about it.

Perfect! You summed up the problem in one simple paragraph.

At the rate we're going, only 10% of us will ever see better than 5-7 years seniority at any regional and then see the pay rates get cut every 10 years or so. Grow one, shrink another, grow that one again, shrink another, let the pilots keep hopping from one carrier to another.

Something has to change.

 

[Butters]

Duane is not in charge of approving anything when it comes down to the judge's decision. The provision of the railway labor act says that engaging in self help after a decision has been made is a crime, 6 months in jail/$20,000. If the judge is making the decision, he is representing the employee's, you have no choice, he made it for you. If the judge rules XJ takes a 20% paycut, you get a 20% paycut or quit, there are no other options. If the employee's could strike after a 1113 filing, it wouldn't even be in the bankruptcy laws.

Thank you, thank you, thank you...

You have once and for all proven that you have no clue as to what you are talking about. I couldn't figure out why your voice was so muffled, but now I know it is because you were talking OUT YOUR ASS.

Enough with the flaming, dude. Go play elsewhere.

 

[Butters]

.....

 

[CptMurf]

Something has to change.

It won't change until there is a shortage of pilots. Simple Supply vs Demand. This may not be too far in the future either. Since all of the Legacy carriers have been furloughing, only the most senior pilots have survived. All of these will be looking at age 60 within the next 5-10 years.

IE. USAir furlouhed back to 1986 (10 years seniority)...Assuming a pilot was hired at 30 years old, they would be 50 now and within that 10 year window.

Fewer numbers learning to fly? Maybe. Since 2001, pilot training has dropped off significantly for the "mom & pop" flight schools. I believe the aviation degree colleges numbers have stayed the same or increase slightly.

It is not the newhires fault. They (just as all of us) do not know the differences in all of our contracts. They do not know the payscales or QOL issues at the different airlines. If there was anything ALPA could do to affect the current industry, it is to set up seminars at the Universities to show how the industry operates and objectively show the payscales/QOL of the regional carriers. Only then we can we blame the newhires for bringing the demise of the industry. Until then, we MUST hold the line to make this a career worth working in.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Where the hell do you get THAT information?

It is, by the way, COMPLETELY incorrect, as 'Time already mentioned.

You're talking about two completely different pieces of law. The 1113(c) provision of corporate bankruptcy law does indeed have a provision that prohibits the employees from taking job action against a judge's order, but it was NOT written for RLA employees.

The RLA very CLEARLY states that if the the contract is completely abrogated and they are being forced to work without a working contract in place, they are FREE TO ENGAGE IN SELF-HELP AT-WILL.

THIS is what's being challenged by Northwest and Mesaba management: the two laws don't work with each other, which one wins?

The judge overseeing Delta's bankruptcy, in regards to DAL pilots going on strike over a negative 1113(c) ruling, when management insisted that a job action would be illegal and they would request her to force them back to work, said POINT BLANK, "That's certainly something I'M not inclined to do, but that's not my jurisdiction", meaning SHE DIDN'T BELIEVE SHE HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT IN VIOLATION OF THE RLA.

We're in uncharted waters here, bubba. Don't go off the handle making statements THAT ARE IN DIRECT CONFLICT WITH WHAT ALPA ATTORNEYS HAVE PLANNED without the EXACT Federal Code to back them up. Makes you look like an idiot to pretty much everyone on here.

The MEC position is that if we didn't agree to the contract, we have the right under the RLA to strike. This is a very true statement and is clearly stated by the RLA. However, in this current situation the judge is making the decision for us. If the judge agrees that the management terms are fair and equitable, he/she can reject the contract. The company can then impose up to only the terms that were proposed during the 1113(c) process. The union, then has the right to bargin therefter and invoke NMB mediation. It would then have to be determined that the judges decision was not fair and equitable. In Mesaba's case, it would be nearly impossible to prove that the term sheet isn't warranted given the position NWA has put you guys in. The MEC can't simply strike because the imposed contract is not to their liking.

 

[KaptainKarl]

Hey Butters, how much do you think the fos could have after cuts if they had gotten the appropriate raises. If the rates had been split, then a concession off of a higher number would mean more pay afterwards. Good we got that growth contract, though.

New sticker: What does Tom Wychor do?

I want my 2% back you useless b!tches.