8HourPilot
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MESA guys help please
- Thread starter Ligeirinho
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BoilerUP
Citation style...
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8HourPilot said:
Yeah, I'm a Junior in the Flight program and a part-time instructor at Hangar Six. My students are the ones that DON'T sound like morons on the radio (there are many that do...a few with enough hours to know better).
Chicago Center doesn't seem to care for the Papa Uni's on their freq (other than 200, 300, and 400PU). Our local tower guys and gals take good care of us. Probably no where else will transients at night hear "Report 3 miles south, left traffic Runway 23, traffic is 11 Warriors in the left closed pattern"
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
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chperplt
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And how is everyone lowering the bar, Mr. 1000 hour, barely has his feet wet in aviation, know-it-all?
Is that really your opinion, or just the opinion that you picked up reading these boards? If it is really your opinion, please explain how all regional pilots, comair included are lowering the bar..
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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chperplt
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The answer is...
ALPA has FAILED to EVOLVE with the industry. Major carriers will shift the flying to regional airlines and scope will die. Major carriers are contracting out flying and this model will continue. Doing so allows all costs (including labor) to be driven down to the lowest possible number. This contracting out allows mgmt. to bargain for lowest price on flights. Mesa is a step in this direction. It will continue. Someone is bound to drop a bit lower. Maybe ASA, maybe comair, maybe COEX.
This will continue to happen up the food chain until eventually those in charge of ALPA feel a sting. Probably when Mesa is flying 200 seat "regional jets" across the country. At that point ALPA will undergo a massive REVOLUTION (not a para-military one, but that could be fun!) and attempt to nationalize standards for carrier wages. That may or may not happen, and I suppose it will be the politicians that decide. In addition the supply of pilots will die out as training costs balloon to ridiculous numbers and the brass ring at the end of the line disappears. Those who can bail out of the industry will.
So I suppose, in the end, all you do-do heads taking jobs at Mesa for all the peanuts you can put in your pockets at the end of the day are just part of the machine.
You might realize however, that the major airline super fabulous job will be gone soon and you will be stuck in a job at Mesa making poverty wages, with a degree in airplane flying from embry-riddle, no other options for a job, and pissed because you never got what you THOUGHT you had coming.
Bend over fellows, here it comes….
And thanks again for taking a job at Mesa and helping this process along.
ALPA has FAILED to EVOLVE with the industry. Major carriers will shift the flying to regional airlines and scope will die. Major carriers are contracting out flying and this model will continue. Doing so allows all costs (including labor) to be driven down to the lowest possible number. This contracting out allows mgmt. to bargain for lowest price on flights. Mesa is a step in this direction. It will continue. Someone is bound to drop a bit lower. Maybe ASA, maybe comair, maybe COEX.
This will continue to happen up the food chain until eventually those in charge of ALPA feel a sting. Probably when Mesa is flying 200 seat "regional jets" across the country. At that point ALPA will undergo a massive REVOLUTION (not a para-military one, but that could be fun!) and attempt to nationalize standards for carrier wages. That may or may not happen, and I suppose it will be the politicians that decide. In addition the supply of pilots will die out as training costs balloon to ridiculous numbers and the brass ring at the end of the line disappears. Those who can bail out of the industry will.
So I suppose, in the end, all you do-do heads taking jobs at Mesa for all the peanuts you can put in your pockets at the end of the day are just part of the machine.
You might realize however, that the major airline super fabulous job will be gone soon and you will be stuck in a job at Mesa making poverty wages, with a degree in airplane flying from embry-riddle, no other options for a job, and pissed because you never got what you THOUGHT you had coming.
Bend over fellows, here it comes….
And thanks again for taking a job at Mesa and helping this process along.
Last edited:
stillaboo2
Member
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- 10
What's informed?
Informed? "Possessing, displaying, or based on reliable information" is what he is?
He is informed by reading the misinformation of a small minority of pilots who post on this board?
If he (or anyone else) gets his information from the internet only and doesn't actually work a 121 cockpit, he is not exposed to all sides of the equation, and is therefore not meeting the standards of 'informed'.
Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, but only some of us can post an informed opinion. (Of course, since this whole board is anonomous, all he has to do is claim he is a 121 pilot, and then I've got egg on my face. )
If Foobar is not a Mesa pilot (and I don't think he is), he is not informed on this issue.
AirBill said:
ACE said:
Informed? "Possessing, displaying, or based on reliable information" is what he is?
He is informed by reading the misinformation of a small minority of pilots who post on this board?
If he (or anyone else) gets his information from the internet only and doesn't actually work a 121 cockpit, he is not exposed to all sides of the equation, and is therefore not meeting the standards of 'informed'.
Everyone is entitled to voice their opinion, but only some of us can post an informed opinion. (Of course, since this whole board is anonomous, all he has to do is claim he is a 121 pilot, and then I've got egg on my face.
)If Foobar is not a Mesa pilot (and I don't think he is), he is not informed on this issue.
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Lou3
Minimums...Minimums!
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I hear a lot of bashing on Mesa and I am surprised that no one ever mentions the other regional carriers that are 'lowering the bar' for pilots. Pinnacle does not even pay their new hires during training, nor do they pick up hotel or meal costs. In fact, I spoke to a former flight instructor buddy of mine recently who just got called for an interview at Pinnacle, his excitement was tempered due to the fact that he did not know if he could even take the job as he is supporting his wife through a solid flight instructing job and is making respectable money by comparrison. I find that to be truly sorry. Then there is Colgan airways which requires their new hires to pay up to 21K just for a spot in their training class--that is pathetic. Gulfstream International is so bad that I don't even recognize them as an airline. These aforementioned regional's are not the only guilty parties. There is very few regionals out there that pay above 20k for first year FO.
My point is, there are a number of carriers out there preying on low time/experience pilots and I do not see a whole lot written about the rest of them. Is it that no one cares for the new hire but only for what is affecting them (ie, raising the average wage of pre-existing regional pilots)? While this benefits those already established in the industry, and also those that eventually get hired and work their way up the seniority list, it seems that there is a void of concern for those just trying to get in. This only fosters an envrionment for new hires that 'why should we try and get more, we are not worth that much anyway'--they learned this on day one! No wonder very few stand up later on in their career's for better wages/benefits. Let's start placing the scorn on ALL those carriers that take advantage of the pilot workforce--remember, the attack is not always frontal but more often to our flanks.
I truly think that ALPA has never really had the regional pilots best interest at heart. At one time they could do that--but no more. Due to their long siesta, that have in essence given up the greater part of their strength. While they concentrated on the preservation of scope clauses (which would never last due to inherent market forces) they ignored the true and best way to help preserve major airline strength. That is, to make a significant decrease in the pay/benefits gap between regional and major pay. They finally caught on and made a bold stand with the Comair strike however, it may have been too little and too late. If ALPA is to succeed as a viable Union for the pilot future they must ensure equal and aggressive representation at the regional level. This in the end, will be the only way to fight the Lorenzo's and Ornstein's and whomever else of the future. Otherwise, we are all in for a ride on the declining wage/benefits highway.
My point is, there are a number of carriers out there preying on low time/experience pilots and I do not see a whole lot written about the rest of them. Is it that no one cares for the new hire but only for what is affecting them (ie, raising the average wage of pre-existing regional pilots)? While this benefits those already established in the industry, and also those that eventually get hired and work their way up the seniority list, it seems that there is a void of concern for those just trying to get in. This only fosters an envrionment for new hires that 'why should we try and get more, we are not worth that much anyway'--they learned this on day one! No wonder very few stand up later on in their career's for better wages/benefits. Let's start placing the scorn on ALL those carriers that take advantage of the pilot workforce--remember, the attack is not always frontal but more often to our flanks.
I truly think that ALPA has never really had the regional pilots best interest at heart. At one time they could do that--but no more. Due to their long siesta, that have in essence given up the greater part of their strength. While they concentrated on the preservation of scope clauses (which would never last due to inherent market forces) they ignored the true and best way to help preserve major airline strength. That is, to make a significant decrease in the pay/benefits gap between regional and major pay. They finally caught on and made a bold stand with the Comair strike however, it may have been too little and too late. If ALPA is to succeed as a viable Union for the pilot future they must ensure equal and aggressive representation at the regional level. This in the end, will be the only way to fight the Lorenzo's and Ornstein's and whomever else of the future. Otherwise, we are all in for a ride on the declining wage/benefits highway.
You are 100% correct, its not just Mesa. Its Key Lime air, Airlink that expects you to pay for accomdations and food while in training and not getting paid, its Commutair that pays 18K????Yeah its a B1900 and the pay is lower, but come on!
I don't work in a 121 cockpit. I fly 91 corporate and I'm a CFI, and I'd like to get a decent 121 job if there are any left next year.
So what am I wrong about?
How is it not a problem that guys take these Mesa jobs. I also get aggravated when we have a CFI agree to teach in our twin for free just for the time. Its these IDIOTS that make flying for a living impossible.
Guess what... They way things are going Mesa may be the last job you take. And then its these same IDIOTS that will be mad because they have an online degree in airplanes from Embry Riddle, no other job options, and are never going to be paid a decent wage.
Bend over guys, here it comes.
I don't work in a 121 cockpit. I fly 91 corporate and I'm a CFI, and I'd like to get a decent 121 job if there are any left next year.
So what am I wrong about?
How is it not a problem that guys take these Mesa jobs. I also get aggravated when we have a CFI agree to teach in our twin for free just for the time. Its these IDIOTS that make flying for a living impossible.
Guess what... They way things are going Mesa may be the last job you take. And then its these same IDIOTS that will be mad because they have an online degree in airplanes from Embry Riddle, no other job options, and are never going to be paid a decent wage.
Bend over guys, here it comes.
AirBill
PC LOAD LETTER
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2003
- Posts
- 188
Re: What's informed?
Amen to that.
For a Part 91 pilot who's never even smelled the cockpit of an airliner to even think of dispensing so-called wisdom about airline jobs is, at best, asinine. Foobar, I don't have so much of a problem over your stance over Mesa as I do with you running down a pilot who's been there before and who's just trying to scrap out a living for a wife and two kids. In a foreign country, no less.
stillaboo2 said:
Amen to that.
For a Part 91 pilot who's never even smelled the cockpit of an airliner to even think of dispensing so-called wisdom about airline jobs is, at best, asinine. Foobar, I don't have so much of a problem over your stance over Mesa as I do with you running down a pilot who's been there before and who's just trying to scrap out a living for a wife and two kids. In a foreign country, no less.
Originally posted by Foobar
How is it not a problem that guys take these Mesa jobs.
If anybody's got a gripe, it's CFI's who take ridiculously low money to fly unsafe airplanes using questionable weight-and-balance formulas to work too many hours and make not enough money. Yet you seem to be doing this. Are you not upset about it? Why don't you quit until they pay you what you're worth.
In fact, I'd be so mad at you for doing your job for slave wages were it not for the fact that most of us here have done the same thing.
Lay off the self-righteous crap and take a sniff at what's happening in the industry. If you want to be considered a true professional in this field, then quit questioning the ethics of someone who's been at it a heck of a lot longer than you have.
My best luck to you in getting a 121 job.
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Oh yeah!!! I almost forgot. In aviation you can tell the smart ones by how long they've been flying and how many hours they have.
When you sell yourself short you are selling me short.
You will make less at Mesa than I do as a CFI.
That is a step down.
For those wages, go CFI and be home every night.
But hey, maybe if I got that job at Mesa I'd get a clue. Then it would all make sense.
Ciao!
When you sell yourself short you are selling me short.
You will make less at Mesa than I do as a CFI.
That is a step down.
For those wages, go CFI and be home every night.
But hey, maybe if I got that job at Mesa I'd get a clue. Then it would all make sense.
Ciao!
Been reading this thread and wanted to add/make a few points.
1. ALPA is only as strong as its pilots. Comair pilots (represented by ALPA) got an industry leading contract because its pilots were willing to sacrifice for it.
2. Comair, ACA, and a few others negotiated their contracts during periods of record industry profits and growth. Meanwhile Mesa pilots were facing the very real action of Freedom (non-union) pilots taking their flying and jobs, while negotiating in one of the worst possible times in aviation. The Mesa pilots, like the Comair pilots, did what they had to do. They had to take smaller gains on the pay side to gain scope in their contract to prevent JO from whipsawing them again. Now all flying must be done by Mesa ALPA pilots. It also included provisions to rehire and integrate the CCAir pilots on the seniority list.
3. Is ANY commuter that much better than Mesa? Sure you might make a few dollars more at some others (although ACA just agreed to a 7% pay cut to create Independence Air, and Comair is being pressured for concessions as well), or a few dollars less at some also. Point is anything could happen over the next few years and with the next set of contracts. I seem to remember when ACA, COex, and several others were all PFT. Even now some companies don't pay during training, or only a small stipend. At least Mesa pays full guarantee during training. Hell, Skywest makes you pay for your own initial set of Jepps!
4. for anyone out there referring to Mesa pilots as scabs - a scab is someone who has made the conscious decision to cross a picket line and fly struck work, period. The word 'scab' should not be used lightly or incorrectly.
ok, let the bashing begin.
1. ALPA is only as strong as its pilots. Comair pilots (represented by ALPA) got an industry leading contract because its pilots were willing to sacrifice for it.
2. Comair, ACA, and a few others negotiated their contracts during periods of record industry profits and growth. Meanwhile Mesa pilots were facing the very real action of Freedom (non-union) pilots taking their flying and jobs, while negotiating in one of the worst possible times in aviation. The Mesa pilots, like the Comair pilots, did what they had to do. They had to take smaller gains on the pay side to gain scope in their contract to prevent JO from whipsawing them again. Now all flying must be done by Mesa ALPA pilots. It also included provisions to rehire and integrate the CCAir pilots on the seniority list.
3. Is ANY commuter that much better than Mesa? Sure you might make a few dollars more at some others (although ACA just agreed to a 7% pay cut to create Independence Air, and Comair is being pressured for concessions as well), or a few dollars less at some also. Point is anything could happen over the next few years and with the next set of contracts. I seem to remember when ACA, COex, and several others were all PFT. Even now some companies don't pay during training, or only a small stipend. At least Mesa pays full guarantee during training. Hell, Skywest makes you pay for your own initial set of Jepps!
4. for anyone out there referring to Mesa pilots as scabs - a scab is someone who has made the conscious decision to cross a picket line and fly struck work, period. The word 'scab' should not be used lightly or incorrectly.
ok, let the bashing begin.
Not quite correct Beechluvr, but it is complicated. Let me try to explain it.
We have our current contract (the green book) that was signed in good times. It has pay that Comair bested by 1 or 2% after their strike.
The green book is currently in effect.
If ACA signs a UAX deal we take a 7% cut.
If ACA goes with Independence, we take a 3% cut, but some guys will go from the J 41 to the CRJ and get a raise. Some other guys will go to the Airbus and get a big raise, but if you are in the CRJ/FRJ and don't move it is a 3% cut.
If there is a change of control of the company (mesa takeover) we stay at the green book rates. As of now, the top rate CRJ capt is 18 years = $96.10/hr. This is for the 50 seater. We don't have any 70 seaters as of now.
A more official explanation of this can be found on the www.alpa.org main public opening page in our letter to the mesa board of directors.
Ligeirinho
Missing the good'old time
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- Posts
- 76
Ok guys I bet everyone got a lot of fun on my thread hehehehe
Including myself.
Let's see:
1- Foobar listen up carefully, the job at MESA can't be the best one but because of the discrimination here in USA that make guys like me with several hours of MD11 not be called for an interview in a major because I am american citizen born in another country is what? SWA only call you for an interview with type rating and how to get one? Not like you, I was not born in a golden cribb and can't afford that but one thing is for sure money don't bring happiness and don't bring me to heaven but JESUS does.
So right now I am a guy with a lot of money yes I make same as a 5 year CRJ captain at MESA but I have no benefits and fly a PA46 Malibu what a life to be flying a single engine after flew the whole world in an MD11!!! Have you ever flew outside your small personal world FOObar?
2- Ligeirinho my nickname is the Brazilian portuguese name for the 70's cartoon of that mexican rat who runs very fast, I don't know in english.
3- Only in USA someone who make up to 29k an year can live better than someone making 35k or even 40k!! How?? Simple up to 29k you have social benefits as food stamps etc... plus some other to help you pay your mortgage if you already have one. And yes it's a big shy to go on food stamps but is even more the prejudice and discrimination among people here because of their accent, color or origin. Plus there are a lot of places a lot better to live than US I just don't have the right to live there and I don't go ilegal to anywhere.
Thanks for all participants on this thread sorry for those who took some different ways here and sorry also if on my reply I hurt someone, far away from hurt the actual intention was call atention for something a lot worst.
And seizing the time guys let's start a movement for a bill on congress to allow us to really vote for president instead of electoral college and be able to one day really have democracy here.
Ok I think I just had some fun too out of the thread hehehehe
MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR
May JESUS gives you peace and love in your hearts
Including myself.
Let's see:
1- Foobar listen up carefully, the job at MESA can't be the best one but because of the discrimination here in USA that make guys like me with several hours of MD11 not be called for an interview in a major because I am american citizen born in another country is what? SWA only call you for an interview with type rating and how to get one? Not like you, I was not born in a golden cribb and can't afford that but one thing is for sure money don't bring happiness and don't bring me to heaven but JESUS does.
So right now I am a guy with a lot of money yes I make same as a 5 year CRJ captain at MESA but I have no benefits and fly a PA46 Malibu what a life to be flying a single engine after flew the whole world in an MD11!!! Have you ever flew outside your small personal world FOObar?
2- Ligeirinho my nickname is the Brazilian portuguese name for the 70's cartoon of that mexican rat who runs very fast, I don't know in english.
3- Only in USA someone who make up to 29k an year can live better than someone making 35k or even 40k!! How?? Simple up to 29k you have social benefits as food stamps etc... plus some other to help you pay your mortgage if you already have one. And yes it's a big shy to go on food stamps but is even more the prejudice and discrimination among people here because of their accent, color or origin. Plus there are a lot of places a lot better to live than US I just don't have the right to live there and I don't go ilegal to anywhere.
Thanks for all participants on this thread sorry for those who took some different ways here and sorry also if on my reply I hurt someone, far away from hurt the actual intention was call atention for something a lot worst.
And seizing the time guys let's start a movement for a bill on congress to allow us to really vote for president instead of electoral college and be able to one day really have democracy here.
Ok I think I just had some fun too out of the thread hehehehe
MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR
May JESUS gives you peace and love in your hearts
Ligeirinho
Missing the good'old time
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2002
- Posts
- 76
Hey guys I just forgot another thing,
ALPA is an UNION as the name says UNION and union means us.
Let me make it clear ALPA is ourselves but ALPA was formed by major carrier guys flying for major carriers with major carriers problems.?!?!?!?!?!
Solution:
We regional pilots should make another union. Simple can even be affiliated to ALPA to be stronger but another union would reflect our problems and also would take care of us not of majors, because we're not there yet.
And Foobar as a CFI man you should be quiet. DO you know that if USA just started to have a medical on ICAO standards about 50% of pilots here would lose their current licenses? yep ICAO medical it's a lot harder to pass than your simple no exam medical first class, just to give you an idea do you know the difference between a psicological and a psichiatric test? on ICAO medical you just have both if fail in any you out plus EEG to check your brain don't mistake with EKG that check your heart they have that also. And do you know that despites ICAO countries have healthier pilots they make only US$ 1500 a month to fly MD11?
Why they do that? maybe you should read more the Bible or get your MD degree if money is all that matters for you.
ALPA is an UNION as the name says UNION and union means us.
Let me make it clear ALPA is ourselves but ALPA was formed by major carrier guys flying for major carriers with major carriers problems.?!?!?!?!?!
Solution:
We regional pilots should make another union. Simple can even be affiliated to ALPA to be stronger but another union would reflect our problems and also would take care of us not of majors, because we're not there yet.
And Foobar as a CFI man you should be quiet. DO you know that if USA just started to have a medical on ICAO standards about 50% of pilots here would lose their current licenses? yep ICAO medical it's a lot harder to pass than your simple no exam medical first class, just to give you an idea do you know the difference between a psicological and a psichiatric test? on ICAO medical you just have both if fail in any you out plus EEG to check your brain don't mistake with EKG that check your heart they have that also. And do you know that despites ICAO countries have healthier pilots they make only US$ 1500 a month to fly MD11?
Why they do that? maybe you should read more the Bible or get your MD degree if money is all that matters for you.
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