Mesa Classes

[Jeepman]

Mayday,

If this contract passes we will be buying scope. Buying it by taking it up the ass by management (without lube) and stomping out Freedom before it spreads.

So if you pass this contract then basically you will be like the Free-dumb guys with the exception that you won't be stepping on your fellow Mesa pilots. Instead you'll be stepping on the rest of us.

COME ON STAND UP FOR YOURSELF.....FOR ALL OF US!!!

Is JO paying this ALPA lawyer? Or has JO promised you guys a big raise if you sign this. Look, I don't see how GW would step in and block you guys because it would disrupt service. I don't think it would be a problem for other airlines wih REAL contracts to step in and replace Mesa's flying. The only bad thing would be that you guys would have to leave Mesa & apply at SkyWest, ACA, ASA & Comair........is that really that bad?

 

[AirBoard]

Posted by Mesagrunt:

''If this contract does not go through you will see J.O. stall more and more while Freedom grows and grows and grows!

So basically what your saying is J.O. has won again. He's pitted low wages against an alter ego airline and you guys feel you have no other choices, great!

Freedumb grows and your wages suck OR Freedumb is stopped and ALL our wages will suck. There's some good flying out in the Northeast, I'll give you guys some crashpad info when the time comes......

BTW Good post Jeepman. The race is on and Mesa looks poised to take the lead!

 

[AirBoard]

you're probably making a lot of us want to vote yes just to spite you jerks. Heck, several of you are so eager to bash us that you seem to have convinced yourselves that the TA has already passed! I'm not gonna make a prediction, but have you ever heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

One thing to consider is that many of those complaining about your sub standard contract are those that bargained hard in past negotiations. Comair even spent 89 days on strike to raise the bar. We're just trying to protect ourselves and the industry from our hard fought concessions.

To vote in a sub standard contract would certainly hurt other airlines future contract negotiations. Don't think for a minute other airline's management won't bring up your contract when it comes to it. Makes us proud.

 

[Jeepman]

Hud,


First of all I'm not some wimp (I will refrain from using the same vulgarity), and second I am not here to bash Mesa pilots. I also don't think alot of other pilots are here to bash Mesa pilots as well. All we are saying is that what happens with your TA will affect ALL OF OUR LIVES & FAMILIES!!

As far as starting over, yes it's no fun to be at the bottom, but ask yourself this, wouldn't it be nice to get paid even if your flight gets cancelled? The 2nd year pay for RJ FO at SkyWest is $34.51 and if I read your proposed TA correctly you guys wouldn't make that for 5 years? SkyWest is currently in pay talks with our pilot association for 70 & 90 seat jets for the same pay just so that we can remain competetive & keep our jobs and feed our families! I don't think I will approve it, and I would not sign a TA just to spite other people. If you sign that TA just to spite people like me you spite the whole industry & thats not cool at all!

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Well, your company's willingness to lowball the entire industry has definitely affected me already and the TA hasn't even passed yet. Let's look at the timeline:

1. ACA is flying as a UAL carrier
2. UAL goes bankrupt, uh oh.
3. UAL seeks bid from carriers to provide UEX service.
4. Mesa and CHQ provide lowball bids.
5. UAL management tells existing carriers you need to cut your costs or else.
6. UAL does not reaffirm ACA's contract.
7. ACA cannot obtain financing for jets on order.
8. Due to non-delivery of expected aircraft, furloughs are imminent.
9. KingAirKiddo is probably going to be furloughed, according to a very recent memo from the CP.

I'd be really interested to hear from Mesa pilots how this is not the case. For all of you who voted no on the TA, thank you...I hope it doesn't pass. For those of you who voted yes, I'll be making more at Home Depot...enjoy that quick upgrade at my expense.

Later.

 

[Herman Bloom]

Right on there KingAirKiddo

This MESA thing is gonna screw all of us IF WE LET IT. I really hope our pilot group is ready to deal with this. I think it is.

I'm really sick of this "feed my family" bs. ALL of us know that...some of the folks on this board held out even when liquidation was threatened. But if the MESA pilots are unwilling to do it, then thats that I suppose. I, for one, would rather quit flying altogether than allow our contracts to be reduced to rubble.

Hope we get some better news soon.

 

[Concierj]

Kind of like Pay for Training.........

 

[AirBoard]

Right on there KingAirKiddo



I'm really sick of this "feed my family" bs. ALL of us know that...some of the folks on this board held out even when liquidation was threatened. But if the MESA pilots are unwilling to do it, then thats that I suppose. I, for one, would rather quit flying altogether than allow our contracts to be reduced to rubble.

Exactly! It's all relative anyway. If you lower the bar far enough it doesn't pay for me to fly anymore - especially as an FO. Eventually I'd make more in some other career and be home everynight , just not enjoying my career as much. Do Mesa pilots honestly feel they'l be happy 4-5 years down the road making those wages, especially once the industry has righted itself (which it will!)??? Try living in the Northeast on those Mesa wages - I don;t know how the BOS Chit-taco guys do it.

 

[Mesagrunt]

No one at Mesa wants this contract. The only reason people are voting yes is because of timing. You cannot compare Comair's negotiations with ours. It was a very very different time when they were negotiating.

Yes, JO did win if this goes through. This contract is terrible! However, our negotiating committee and ALPA national are telling us we need to go ahead and vote it in. We need to fight this fight another day. We need to step on Freedom while we still can. Unfortunately we will have to live with this crappy contract for a while. To me its worth it to see those Freedom losers pay.

 

[Jeepman]

Unfortunately we will have to live with this crappy contract for a while. To me its worth it to see those Freedom losers pay.

We will ALL pay if you agree to this TA!!!!

I don't think that there's room enough for all of us at Home Depot

 

[AirBoard]

No one at Mesa wants this contract. The only reason people are voting yes is because of timing.

Yes, JO did win if this goes through. We need to fight this fight another day. We need to step on Freedom while we still can. Unfortunately we will have to live with this crappy contract for a while. To me its worth it to see those Freedom losers pay.

Well it sounds likes its a done deal. Mesagrunt I appreciate your honesty but how many years must go by before you don't have a terrible contract. Basically your signing on for another 4 years. JO's has won big time here. I'd say 'sucks to be you' but I have a feeling it will be 'sucks to be all of us' very soon.

 

[RJPilott]

If Mesa ratifys this TA, Mesa pilots will be looked upon as a new form of Freedom pilots. If Mesa turns down the TA., Mesa pilots will be Mesa pilots and Freedom pilots will still be treated as Freedom pilots with the utmost pressure from ALPA (including pressure from respectable Regional Management as seen by ACA CP turning down the JS to Freedom pilots). I still cant believe ALPA is endorsing this TA...

 

[supsup]

??

I still don't understand why everyone is bashing mesa pilots. A previous post said that if this TA passes "Mesa pilots will be looked upon as a new form of Freedom pilots." No one here, including mesa pilots, is saying that this contract is great. But freedom goes against everything that a union represents. How can alpa members bash mesa pilots for wanting to get rid of freedom (the demon of the industry). Another question, why would alpa endorse this contract? Furthermore, if alpa does endorse this contract, why do current alpa members blame mesa pilots? Help me on this one. Another question, many posts on this subject have said that this will TA will send contract negotiations in the future down the toilet and that this TA is sending the wrong message to airline management. I see this as alpa's way of telling airline management that we will not except this tactic (start up of non-union airlines to get around scope) in the future. These are just some of my thoughts on this subject, I'm not a alpa member or an airline pilot, so my knowledge on this subject is minimal. However I do have a little insight with unions in a different industry. I would hate to see the members of alpa fighting against one another more than it already is (major vs. regional). One last question to the opposers of this TA, is there anything positive in the mesa TA that would benefit regional airlines in the future? Just curious.

supsup

 

[Freight Dog]

A quick question for Mesa guys... NMB will eventually declare Freedom and Mesa a single carrier, just like CCAir. Or do you guys think it's a losing fight to hold out for NMB ruling?

 

[B1900DFO]

Supsup-
I think that a lot of the anti-mesa pilot sentiment comes from people feeling like they are selling out the profession. At the US WO's many pilots felt that we lost a large portion of "our" flying to Mesa solely due to their substandard wages. Of course it WASN'T their fault because they were working under an existing contract.

Now they have the opportunity to level the playing field, so to speak, and it looks like they are low-balling the contract in exchange for accelerated growth. Of course management will say that they can't afford a significant raise, that's their job. I'm sure many at ACA are starting to worry that this pathetic TA is going to lead to their furlough or downgrade. I imagine that they would be suspicious as to whether the rank and file Mesa pilots who vote yes are hoping for some serious expansion into the Ual feeder ops, as a result of this passing.

Also as far as I know Alpa national generally endorses contracts unless they are seen as woefully inadequete (apparently this one passed the test). Alpa national does not negotiate the terms, it is done by a group of elected pilots from the airline.

 

[surplus1]

Re: ??

I still don't understand why everyone is bashing mesa pilots.

What I'm about to say is not going to be popular or politically correct with anyone, but your questions have given me an opportunity to say it. ALPA national will dislike me for saying it, mainline pilots will dislike me, many Mesa pilots will dislike me and so will MANY pilots at other regionals. I don't care if I'm popular or politically correct. So here goes.

The answer to your question is -- Beacuse the "bashers" won't recognize the real culprit or are afraid to challenge that culprit. So they pick on the Mesa pilots because that is easy to do.

Mesa pilots may vote for this TA. My guess is that they will. A bunch of regional pilots in this thread and in other threads have been calling them all sorts of things and telling them to vote no.

What do your think ALPA is telling them to do? VOTE YES!

Who should "everyone" be bashing? ALPA! But no one has the guts to do that. I do.

But freedom goes against everything that a union represents. How can alpa members bash mesa pilots for wanting to get rid of freedom (the demon of the industry).

Feedom goes against what a union should represent because it is an alter ego, but it does not go against what ALPA truly represents. Freedom came into existence as a direct response to policies created and put in place by ALPA. ALPA itself has created the equivalent of Freedom at another airline, they call it Mid Atlantic. ALPA is not objecting to Republic, also created due to ALPA policy at yet another airline.

ALPA members are not bashing Mesa pilots because they want to get rid of Freedom. As a matter of fact, they are praiseing Mesa pilots for doing that and deliberately ignoring the union policies that brought it into existence. As long as only Mesa pilots have to pay the price of getting rid of Feedom, other ALPA pilots don't care. They are bashing Mesa pilots because they know that this TA will hurt them. Hypocrisy flourishes in ALPA.

Another question, why would alpa endorse this contract?

Good question. Simple answer. ALPA couldn't care less what happens to Mesa pilots or to any other group of regional pilots. ALPA's interest is focused on promoting the interests of mainline pilots. Who else gets hurt in the process is irrelevant.

ALPA is a political organization. Regional pilots do not have enough votes to elect any of the politicians that run ALPA at the national level. Therefore, those politicians need to take care of the people with the votes. They are doing just that.

ALPA has implemented a policy intended to provide jobs for furloughed USAirways pilots. This contract, if passed, will force Mesa pilots to accept that policy. Even if the pay rates and work rules of Mesa, under this new contract, are so bad that few if any of the maniline pilots take the jobs, ALPA will still be able to say "we got you the jobs". That is good politics. The fact that thousands of regional pilots, members of ALPA, may be screwed in the process is once again, irrelevant.

Where does that leave us? ALPA gets everything that ALPA wants in this TA. The fact that the Mesa pilots get little of anything, and that other regional pilots will be adversely affected if this passes, is not ALPA's priority.

Furthermore, if alpa does endorse this contract, why do current alpa members blame mesa pilots? Help me on this one.

What I said before. Mainline pilots don't care, it doesn't affect them. Regional pilots are brainwashed. They don't have "Stockholm Syndrome" but they do have "ALPA Syndrome". They actually believe that their captor is their friend. Therefore, Mesa pilots become their enemy.

Another question, many posts on this subject have said that this will TA will send contract negotiations in the future down the toilet and that this TA is sending the wrong message to airline management. I see this as alpa's way of telling airline management that we will not except this tactic (start up of non-union airlines to get around scope) in the future.

Another good question. It is true that the content of the TA will affect every other regional in ALPA, and many not in ALPA, in a negative way. I've already told you why I think that doesn't matter.

What you see as "ALPA's way of telling airline management that we will no accept this tactic in the future", is exactly what ALPA wants you to see and believe.

The real problem with Freedom. form ALPA's point of view, it that it was created to get around Scope. The type of scope that should never have been in place to begin with.

The management of Mesa, created Freedom to avoid that bad scope provision and enter into a contract with America West. ALPA's Scope created Freedom.

ALPA created Jets for Jobs. Chautauquas pilots, represented by the IBT, voted against accepting ALPA's J4J policy. Chaq's holding company, created Republic, to get around the IBT contract and comply with J4J. Although Republic is no different as an alter ego than Freedom is, ALPA hasn't said one word publicly in support of Chautauqua's pilots. Why not? Because the new Republic will be staffed exclusively by USAirways pilots and (probably) represented by ALPA.

AT USAir Group, ALPA itself arranged for the creation of Mid Atlantic Airways, an alter ego. MAA will be staffed by USAirways pilots. Back when MAA was called Potomac and was non-union, ALPA was going to sue USAir Group, because that alter ego violated the contracts of ALG/PDT/PSA. USAirGroup shut Potomac down. ALPA revived it and did not mind if it violated the same contracts that it did before. ALPA helped the company to coerce the pilots of ALG/PDT and PSA, to get them to accept Mid Atlantic and the J4J protocol. ALPA blames it all on the bankruptcy.

The bankruptcy is a factor, but does it justify the creation of an alter ego to trash the regional contracts? I don't think so. Why didn't ALPA find another way to fix the problem? Why did ALPA allow 4 times the amount of subcontracting at U than before if ALPA is really against subcontracting? Because ALPA is willing to play politics with the careers of regional pilots, whenever those politics are viewed as advantageous to the careers of mainline pilots.

Why don't regional pilots see all this for what it is? Answer, a great many do, but they also see themselves as working for a "stepping stone" that will get them to the major airline job that they want. ALPA has used every opportunity to foster that stepping stone concept and make regional pilots believe it because the idea facilitates ALPA's policies.

As long as the regional types believe in that, they will not challenge ALPA's Scope ideas, which allow the mainlinee groups to control the work of the regional groups. That is what ALPA wants. Why does ALPA want that? Easy, ALPA is run and controled totaly by mainline pilots. Why wouldn't they do things that favor themselves? Why do they need to worry about what happens in a little airline where they never ever expected that they might work one day?

There's another reason for that too. Mesa was going to use RJs with 70 and 90 seats. ALPA doesn't want ANY regional to operate jets with 70 seats, let alone with 90 seats. ALPA wasn't able to prevent that, so now ALPA is doing whatever it can to ensure that those 70 and 90 seat jets (or at least 1/2 of them) are flown by mainline pilots and not regional pilots.

In the TA, ALPA gets not all of what it wants, but most of it. If that means a horrible contract at Mesa and thrashing the contracts at ALG/PDT/PSA, helping to shaft the CHQ pilots by stealing work from another union (IBT), or walking over the Midway pilots, no one in the power structure at ALPA cares.

I would hate to see the members of alpa fighting against one another more than it already is (major vs. regional).

I hate to see it too, but it is already happening and I predict it will get worse before it gets better.

I'm lucky that we have one of the better regional contracts. I have no doubt whatever, that if the Mesa pilots ratify this TA, it will put pressure on my group to make concessions. I expect it to happen.

I wish the Mesa pilots could see that, and I hope they will not buy the ALPA sales pitch and sign that contract. However, I suspect that they will. If they do, I won't blame them, I'll blame the salesmen for pushing a product that is worthless.

One last question to the opposers of this TA, is there anything positive in the mesa TA that would benefit regional airlines in the future?

.

In my opinion, the answer to that question is a resounding NO. And yes, I have read it in detail and my statement includes the Scope, that is being used to sell them a pig in a poke.

I don't think Mesa pilots should fall on their swords and commit suicide to make me or anyone else feel good. I don't think they have to strike to get a better deal, and I also think there are better ways to deal with Freedom than the one that ALPA has chosen. I realize that their CEO is an SOB, but so are most CEO's. ALPA gave him an opportunity on a silver platter and he took it. I don't believe the Mesa pilots have to give up everything to overcome Freedom.

If ALPA was supporting the Mesa pilots, it would NOT be supporting the TA. If any Mesa pilot wants to tell me that ALPA hasn't been giving them a high powered sales pitch to ratify this agreement, I'm listening.

 

[Mayday911]

An earlier post asked why ALPA national is supporting this TA and telling MAG pilots to vote yes. The answer very simply is Jets 4 Jobs!!!! If this piece of junk TA passes, a whole bunch of furloughed USAir pilots get jobs with Mesa. ALPA is selling the rest of us (ie. "small jet operators") down the river in order to appease the MEC at USAir. I for one will support a startup of a small carrier union and kiss ALPA goodbye, that is if I have a job.