Mesa Ba

[jmddgc]

Simon Says, our scope blows!

Do you know what the fastest growing market is in aviation?
FRACTIONAL jet flying.
Our scope clearly does not cover this and there seems to be some confusion on how valid it covers cargo flying.
Can you take 30 seats out of a Saab, is it still a 30 seater?

Just some food for thought.

P.S. Paul Foley spent a million dollars on a Saab to cut out a cargo door. Does anyone remember that?

 

[LivinDaDream]

jmddgc,

What are you smokin'???

ALL flying for MAIR or any of it's subsidiaries, current or future, sub-subsidiaries, current of future, etc.. etc.. WILL be flown by Mesaba Aviation Seniority List Pilots under the conditions of the Mesaba Contract.

This includes cargo, ferry, aerobatic, reposition, ALL passenger, maintenance, and any other silly type of flying that your paranoid brain can invent.

This is the best scope in the industry...BAR NONE.

Mesaba can never dangle another carrot like the AVRO/LOA 15 matter again.

Come on man, you can do better than that if you want to shoot this thing down. VOTE YES!!

 

[jmddgc]

Look aerobatic, fairy, wannabe pilot.....

If you have any questions regarding loopholes in the scope, please call Jane Shraft, our lawyer and listen for yourself. That is what she told us at the Detroit morning roadshow.

P.S. Do you think cargo is this bad? Good luck, hero

 

[DTWFO]

Cathal:
I don't see how your previous post was an attempt at mending any fences in any way no matter how many times I read it. I'm not trying to bash anyone, nor claim that Pinnacle is better than anyone else. I AM however getting fed up with Pinnacle being lumped in with Mesa and the like. It's just as unfair as Mesaba being compared to Mesa and equally as untrue. If you read some of my other posts you will find that I not only want Mesaba to succeed, but also supported them whole-heartedly throughout. I just don't want Mesaba to jump at the first offer when maybe they can do better and help us out in the process. That's all, not trying to put anyone down. I understand that I do not know what went on in the negotiating room, nor is it my place to tell anyone how they should vote, but I cannot agree that this is the best TA that Mesaba could have gotten. Yes, our contract is horrible, but your comparing your NEW agreement to our OLD one, which was signed before we even had any jets. That's the only point that I'm trying to make. I wish you all the best and hope you'll be happy with whatever the outcome might be!

Livindadream:
Very well thought out and presented and I thank you for your well wishes, but I cannot agree that Mesa raised the bar for anyone and I also don't believe that your TA is the best you could have gotten. But that is easy for me to say right. Best of luck to you as well.

 

[LivinDaDream]

DTW FO,

I won't argue the Mesa deal here because it's an emotional issue and I think that those that take issue with Mesa have some valid points. For me, I believe that they took a big hit personally, but still accomplished something huge for the rest of us by killing Freedom. I wish that I believed that you were right and that we could have gotten better. But I have a great deal of faith in our MEC and Negotiators and trust there judgement that we got all that was to be had. Don't get me wrong XJ can afford more, they just aren't going to fork it over.


Thanks to you and those at PCL that stood behind us. The favor will be returned.

 

[LivinDaDream]

jmddgc,

Where to start?????

Having spoken to Jane Schraft 3 times this week and attending 2 roadshows to date, calling her would be redundant. The things you say are either a severe distortion of the truth to represent your personal issues with this TA, or you totally misunderstood what Jane said.

This Scope covers every instance of flying that you mentioned. The ONLY exception is BigSky flying 19 seat aircraft. This is spelled out not only in the "Holding Company Letter" to be signed by Foley, but also the negotiating notes of our attorneys. Simply read page 1.5 of the TA where it states in the 2nd paragraph, "pilots on the Mesaba Pilots' seniority list will perform all flying..." Where is the ambiguity?

To answer your 30 seat question, YES it is still a 30 seat A/C. Look at the measures NWA and Canadair went through to get the 44 seaters around NWA Scope due to this certification issue. That is how it was certified and if Foley were to try and get the planes re-certified, this would be seen as circumventing the intent of the agreement. This would kill another one of his brilliant plans. He's 0 for 2 so far.

I'm not sure why you felt the need for the immature name calling. As for my "paranoid brain" comment, maybe that was uncalled for, but your concerns seem to be a little into the conspiracy theory realm. I think you are giving Foley and the gang more credit than they have earned.

 

[DoinTime]

What I don't think many people, PCL and MSA, realize is how big the gap between our contracts really is. I hope that our PCL brothers realize how far they really need to move in the next round of negotiations to move ahead of us. In pay rates alone, it will take an 8%-12% DOS increase just to bring payrates even with this new TA. When your new contract is signed, that is about how far we will have progressed in our new TA.

I would love to see our PCL brothers get an industry leading contract this next go around. Your current contract has a long way to go to even reach our current one. And the new TA has moved us even further ahead. This is not a slam or personal slight, just a fact.

Our trip guarantees (100% for cancellations), premium pay (150%), block or better pay (no 15 min for free), and now a look forward 4hr min day put us 8%-10% ahead of PCL before we even look at pay rates. This would mean that a CL65 Cpt needs $5 to $6 an hour more just to be even. Basically, it will take a 16%- 22% increase in pay AND workrules to see the same takehome pay as your MSA brothers.

For 7 months of our new TA, PCL Captains will make about a $1 an hour more in about 3 longevity ranges (3-6yr range, I believe). Since this plane will not likely be on the property during this 7 month period, it seems like a moot point.

I will not argue that XJ has some better provisions that provide greater pay in limited number of circumstances but the discrepancy is far from what you proclaim. I reviewed my schedule/pay records from last year and found this:

Cancellations - 6 round trips that cost me 6.7 hours due to 50% cancellation pay.

Premium pay - was never junior manned and but extended once (at 150% pay like our contract provides).

Daily minimum - no work days scheduled for less than four hours except for a handful of CDO's that are paid at 3.75 hours per our contract.

Days off - Never scheduled for less than 11 days off.

Block or better - This would be nice to have at PCL but with the schedules times pulled in as tight as they have been lately I am positive that we make more money on our trip value system than we would make with block or better (obviously you don't understand how our system works). The way things are now most of our trips are paid well ABOVE scheduled block even before the flight is operated.

Retirement - Your retirement (if you choose to call a 401K a retirement) is only as good as what YOU will collect from it before it is renegotiated. With my contributions last year, based on your formula, I would have made an extra $64 in company matching with your retirement.


I don't know where you got those wild a$$ assumptions on how much more your contract is worth but I am sure it has been spun more than my laundry. At best I would give your TA a 1-2% premium over our contract (QOL issues are different story). With your payrates nearly the same as ours you are NOT going to make much more money.

Your MEC is trying like he!! to "sell" you this TA but it is up to each individual to vote their position. If this deal is as much as you can truly get than I think we both know what the right decision is. However, this TA falls well short of what you guys claimed wasn't worth working for so I'm a little taken aback as to the amount of support it has been getting.

I'm sure you all learned a little something about the "Stockholm syndrome" while in new hire training. Be sure to watch for the symptoms.

 

[LivinDaDream]

DoinTime,

Those contract comparisons come from ALPA National Economic and Financial Analysis Department. Their figures indicate that these work rule differences alone result in AT LEAST an 8% increase in W2 earnings. So talk to them about your laundry reference. Since they know both of our contracts and have all of our W2 info for dues verification, I would guess that they might know better than either one of us.

I referred to our pay as "block or better", but this is not really an accurate way of saying it. I called it that to simplify it. I am quite familiar with how you guys compute your trip values. Our times are actually called SAT's or Scheduled Average Times which are an average of the last 12 months flights over that route. They differ from "Block" times which we call marketing times (what you see in the NWA schedule). Sound familiar?? We compute this the same way as you, only we meet every 6 months to make changes while you do it once a year. In fact, your contract language is almost identical to ours.

Any "Open Time" that we pick up on days off is paid out at 150% vs. 100% for PCL.

CDO's are paid at 4 hours at XJ.

As for the 401k... If I put in the 8% that gets matched by the company, I would have $6480 dollars more in there than today with about $2160 coming from XJ match. If I was at PCL, it would be $5616 with only $1296 coming from the company. An $864 differnce for the first year alone with no interest added. For a 20 year AVRO Cpt only putting in the same 8% would recieve about $9400 in company match vs. $4600 if he were under the PCL plan. I would call this a BIG difference.

Does this TA get everything that we wanted? NO Is it the best contract negotiated in the last 2 years? YES

Good Luck to you guys next year. I sincerely mean that. I think that you will better understand the value of our contract when you see what PT puts on the table in front of you and have to deal with these scumbag attorneys. (You will be negotiating with the same law firm that we did, courtesy of NWA)

 

[DoinTime]

Those contract comparisons come from ALPA National Economic and Financial Analysis Department. Their figures indicate that these work rule differences alone result in AT LEAST an 8% increase in W2 earnings. So talk to them about your laundry reference. Since they know both of our contracts and have all of our W2 info for dues verification, I would guess that they might know better than either one of us.

I guarantee you that I know far more about my contract and my W2 than ALPA National ever will (and I hope you would know more about yours too). All contracts have money hidden in them somewhere, you just have to find out where. I made nearly $40K my second year as a FO at a payrate of less than $23/hr.

I know how ALPA comes up with those numbers and they are based on many assumptions that don't ring true in the real world. Minimum daily credit means nothing if you always exceed it. Trip and duty rigs mean nothing if your schedules are written well. Premium pay for open time means nothing if you never pick any up.

I've illustrated how your work rules would have affected ME and the schedule I worked last year. Very little difference when it come down to reality. If you guys have very poorly written schedules, then maybe the min. day rig will benefit you well. Our schedules are typically blocked out to 7-8 hours a day though so this benefit would only give a 15 minute benefit on the few CDO's we do.

As for the 401k... If I put in the 8% that gets matched by the company, I would have $6480 dollars more in there than today with about $2160 coming from XJ match. If I was at PCL, it would be $5616 with only $1296 coming from the company. An $864 difference for the first year alone with no interest added. For a 20 year AVRO Cpt only putting in the same 8% would receive about $9400 in company match vs. $4600 if he were under the PCL plan. I would call this a BIG difference.

Your numbers are exceptionally hard to follow here. Company matching for my longevity is 25% of 5% at Pinnacle and Mesaba is 25% of 6%. This would be a maximum of $150 increase in company match assuming you were willing to contribute $600 more of your own money (based on a $60,000 yearly income).

Once again its all about how it applies to YOU. I don't chose to make huge contributions to my 401 and I don't have 20 years of longevity. Your 401 is insignificant as it applies to me, and to the majority of your seniority list.

I can see that this contract would sit well with the more senior Avro captains but it has very little to offer the junior end of the list. If I were an Avro captain I would have a hard time looking my FO in the eye after voting yes on this deal.

 

[cathal]

DTWFO- Gald to see we're on more of the same page than I originally understood. No hard feelings here. I want you guys to better than us so we can shoot for something next millenium

 

[Lear70]

DoinTime is right on the money. I went to the roadshow in Detroit night before last, and I read the full text of the T.A. (left a copy in our operations area), and although there are some great things in there, it's not the huge leap over the PCL contract your Association is touting (trust me, I've been on reserve for long enough to have memorized our contract and recognize the differences at first read). Actually, there were several things in the presentation that were incorrect about our contract and a couple sections where your contract is actually less attractive than ours!

The F/O rates, CDO guarantee, and the 150% for trip pickup is the basic main gain in your contract over ours. As Doin Time said, the gains from "block or better" or for "4 hour min day" are "marginal" at best. If you like, I can post the last month's bid packet on a publically available website for any Mesaba pilot to download and review. If you can find a 4-6% increase in monthly pay for the majority of our pilots based on your 4 hour min day, I'll buy you a steak dinner at Morton's.

That said, Wychor said it best: You have to decide if you and your families can live with this agreement. "It's not everything we wanted, but it was enough to bring to you to decide whether to accept or not". That's a direct quote, by the way. I sincerely hope it dies, and I know it'll be close, but I KNOW that your group DESERVES more and CAN GET IT! Either way, the pilots at PCL support the pilots at MSA, because in the end, it's YOUR contract; we only ask for the same support 3 years from now...

Good luck, and God bless!

 

[fly4ever]

JJJ,

While it is true that you are expecting to receive all of the current CRJ's on order, if you read your SEC filing carefully regarding the IPO prospectus, it will tell you that NWA can re-allocate those CRJ's whenever they choose. They can slow your deliveries to send some in another direction whenever they choose. There are no guarantees in this industry.

DoinTime,

You make some good points but you are looking at our contract from only your perspective and with your W-2s. As you get closer to your contract negotiations your schedules will begin to change rather dramatically especially for the junior people. That is where the pressure is applied in order to suck the life out of your contract hopes. Maybe you won't be here when all of that takes place - what with comments made by other PCL folks about getting their 1000 PIC in in a year and a half. I'm sure there will be a huge hiring boom in the next two years and you won't have to deal with it. If not, be prepared for the same treatment and pressure that has been applied to us. Our lawyer/contract administrator has been doing these contracts for 18+ years. She has negotiated several contracts over that time including the Air Whiskey contract that raised the bar in the industry. When she says that she believes we extracted every penny we could from this company in this TA I believe she knows what she is talking about. If this TA is voted down and we go back to the table there will be no more money provided by the company, the best that could be hoped for would be a re-shuffle of the numbers. Just ask the America West pilots if the TA they finally passed had anything better than the first TA they rejected. It only re-shuffled the numbers and a little language.

No matter what, it is a difficult decision and none of us takes it lightly. We know what the stakes are and the risks involved. I have a new level of respect for all who have been through this process and have had to make the decision for or against. The sniping that is aimed at you from those who don't know anything about your company or your current contract and TA is unbelievable. We'll see how you hold up to the pressure if you're still around.

 

[JJJ]

We are getting 129 RJ's. NWA can reduce that number to 95 if they wish in the future.

 

[XJslave]

People, people, people,

Our work rules lead the industry! I repeat OUR WORK RULES LEAD THE INDUSTRY!!!!!!

What everything boils down to is what a person brings home on their W-2. If you don't believe me I have seen two peoples last paycheck on what they made in the year of 2003.

4-5 year FO making $30.05/hr
$39,284

5-6 year SF-340 Captain (line holder)
makes $45.28/hr
$58,016

Work rules give you quite a bump in paychecks. So when you all talk about Pinnacle, Mesa, ACA, Air Wisconsin, Comair making $1-3 dollar more an hour than a Mesaba pilot ask them what pay is protected when a trip is cancelled, Ask about CDO's, ask about minimum pay garantee, ask about a minimum pay day, ask them what kind of scope protection they have, ask about training on the back side of the clock, ask about retirement, ask about jumpseats, ask about premium pay, And then ask to see their W-2 at the end of the year compared to a Mesaba pilot.

We fell way short in FO pay, fell a little short in Captain pay, and are also signing a 5 year contract. Mesaba pilots, by far, blew away the competion with work rules and scope. (yes we sold some for solid scope.)

At first my vote was a no, But now knowing the facts I changed it to an absolute YES

Simon, what are you smoking? I left Mesaba for AWAC, and I can tell you looking at your TA that your work rules are nowhere near AWAC's. So you got a 4 hour min day, and AWACs is only 3, but we have trip and duty rigs also. The retirement you got is only a increase in 401k match, thats not a retirement. The work rules in the TA are very good, but they are not the best industry. This is not an attack, I just think it sucks that after 2 1/2 years of the company making your life hell this TA is the best they can do. I can't tell you guys how to vote. It's your TA and you'll have to live with it, but please don't act like this is the best contract in the industry. I can say if i was still in XJ land I'd vote no on this crap.

 

[DoinTime]

We are getting 129 RJ's. NWA can reduce that number to 95 if they wish in the future.

While it is true that you are expecting to receive all of the current CRJ's on order, if you read your SEC filing carefully regarding the IPO prospectus, it will tell you that NWA can re-allocate those CRJ's whenever they choose. They can slow your deliveries to send some in another direction whenever they choose. There are no guarantees in this industry.

Both incorrect statements. Pinnacle is to operate a minimum fleet of 129 CRJ's by 12/2005 per the service agreement amendment shortly before the IPO went through. The only way to reduce this number is the cancellation of our contract or a work stoppage. If a work stoppage occurs the fleet can be immediately reduced by 79 CRJ's. If the strike continues for more than 45 days the fleet can be reduced to a minimum of 50 CRJ's.

You make some good points but you are looking at our contract from only your perspective and with your W-2s.

My whole point was for your pilots to look at this TA as it applies to THEM. I think its rocks that your 401 pays out 125% in matching but when you need 20 yos to reach that level it doesn't matter much to the guy who has been there three years. Safe to say there are no more Avro's on the horizon as well. Any new jet growth will be in form of 44 seat jets. These will be the payrates most of your pilots will be under as your agreement matures.

This agreement will probably span another seven years and then everything will be up grabs. Does it provide what you need from it now? Will it provide what you need in the future?

She has negotiated several contracts over that time including the Air Whiskey contract that raised the bar in the industry.

Did she also negotiate the concessions that gutted that very same agreement?