MEI the most deadly GA job?

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

I’ve heard in some hanger chat that working as an MEI, is the most deadly pilot position in GA. Anyone care to shed some light on the subject; statistics (link), personal experiences etc.


Thanks,
TA

 

[rumpletumbler]

I'm not an MEI nor have a I logged even a single hour of dual SEL since I got my ticket almost 2 years ago. However, I think it would be totally up to the CFI in either instance as to how dangerous it was or wasn't. He is the boss and things will only get out of hand if he/she allows it or creates it to begin with right?

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Alaska Brush Pilot is pretty insane. It's low time guys (mostly low time) trying to build some quick time.

 

[EagleRJ]

I'll agree that when performing Multi-Engine instruction, you can get into much deeper trouble, much quicker than you can in just about any other kind of GA flying.

I'm not sure if the accident stats bear that out, though. Most MEIs are acutely aware of the risks, and are especially on their toes when doing the riskier maneuvers.

 

[Vladimir Lenin]

SE CFI is probably just as bad, because you're dealing with people that have never been in an airplane and it's very unnatural to them

at least ME applicants can tell between the throttle and the mixture (well, most can)

 

[apdsm]

I did several hundred hours of MEI intstruction and yes, they will try to kill you! Having said that, they will also try to kill you in SE!

For MEI's my advice would be to ALWAYS keep your feet on the rudders when doing single engine work and ALWAYS go as high as is feasible for Vmc demo/practice!

As with all flight instruction, it's up to you to not let the student kill you!!!

 

[FracCapt]

Helicopter CFI is worse.

I'll second that. I know several Heli CFI's that have bent landing gear and such because the student does something incredibly stupid that the CFI can't recover from quickly enough(usually has something to do with low rotor RPM).

 

[HAL]

It used to be that being an MEI was a lot worse. Back in the 60's and 70's the FAA was 'advising' that engine-out and Vmc demo training should be done 'realisticly', meaining as low as possible. This led to many MEI's chopping a throttle in a twin comanche at 500 ft AGL, full power, low speed, and often with predictable results. Finally the FAA caught on and changed their advice to at least 3000 ft AGL, and using a Vsse (minimum safe single engine speed) for training.


These days, after what I've seen and heard about, I think it is the guys down in southeast Alaska flying single engine planes around all those mountains and water in bare minimum VFR conditions (applied very loosely) that have the most deadly job in GA.

HAL

 

[tom1178]

I just started working as a CFI 6 weeks ago and only have about 80 hours of dual given so far....everyday it seems it's something new that really gets my attention. Everyday I learn something new, probably more than one thing per day actually. Don't have my MEI yet, going to probably get that in a yr or so when I move to an area where i would be able to teach it, where i'm from there aren't many/if any places that teach multi.....I can only imagine how many more things that could go wrong from teaching MEI

 

[coolyokeluke]

I had two interesting situations while a MEI. I was once doing slow flight and then following up with power on stalls in a Seminole. We complete the stall and the student starts climbing up with application of power in recovery. I thought he was neglecting to trim to a proper pitch attitude. Turned out the elevator trim broke in the full up position. It was a slow flight/high pitch attitude flight back to the airport. Another time I was doing an actual single engine shutdown. When trying to re-start it simply wouldn't. We had the student's wife and kid in the back and were at gross considering fuel load when we started the lesson about an hour and a half before so we were a little lighter but not so much. Got to give my student a realistic lesson in light airplane single engine climb performance. We tried several starts with the prop windmilling which at a lot of altitude. Then we just feathered it and flew to the nearest airport. The engine behaved perfectly normal on the ground and subsequently.

I think the Alaskan bush pilots do much riskier stuff than instructing though. Over gross weight, limited-very poor visiblity flying, flat light, no light, flying very long days, poor maintenance, difficult/challenging airports or off airport landings, landing on lakes without a ripple (float plane pilot depth perception problems, and other crazy pilots to share their space with working on a big sky little airplane theory (Capstone is helping that though). To name just a few.

 

[Alchemy]

I read somewhere that alaskan pilots have a 1 in 7 chance of being killed during their flying careers. I'd say that's significantly higher than just about anything else in aviation....


MEI is dangerous, but not too bad if you adhere to the guidlines in the POH of most airplanes. For instance, the BE55 POH states that VMC demos should not be performed below 5000 AGL.....I don't think I'd want to do stalls in a twin much lower than that either.

It didn't happen to me, but my old instructor inadvertantly spun a baron.....he ws doing power off stalls with a student and the student incorrectly turned the fuel boost pumps on for the manuever (boost pump in the older BE55's will flood the engine if the engine driven pump is also workin).

When the student attempted to recover from the stall with full throttle, the right engine sputtered and they flipped......a VMC roll/spin ensued. The same plane also blew a jug on the right engine during the power reduction after the inital climbout on a missed approach procedure.

 

[barnyard]

Banner towing is also quite dangerous, maybe a close second to bush flying AK.
Taking the plane from 10 ft AGl to 200-300 ft in a split scond while teetering on the edge of a stall isn't so hard to do, but I think the problem is when guys get complacent, show off or just forget how dangerous it can be.
Sometimes when you push over at the top of the pick-up, the 0 G situation can empty the fuel from the carbeurator (sp??) bowl causing an engine sputter; not too desireable at stall speed 300 ft up with a banner hanging off the back of the plane.
The worst thing that ever happend to me towing was when I lost a mag in a citabria with an oversized baner 500' over the beach...I was losing about 350' /min, luckily there was a decent drop zone in a marsh right nearby.

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

Banner towing is the safest flying I've ever done.

Never anywhere near a stall in a Cub, way to much power, you're driving that banner up like nuts, well maybe not like nuts, I did have a bit of a problem one time with a 65' high panel, she still climbed like a homesick Angel though.

 

[Snakum]

What about the Ag aero-application guys? I wouldn't 'crop dust' for Delta 777 pay. I have kids.

Minh

 

[nosehair]

I tremble at your feet

R - 22 Instructors; You are the ones! Tha-a-t is spooky!

 

[TEXAN AVIATOR]

What about the Ag aero-application guys? I wouldn't 'crop dust' for Delta 777 pay. I have kids.

Minh

My uncle crop dusted for years before he moved on to CAL. He's got some wild stories too.

 

[JRSLim]

Why?

Another time I was doing an actual single engine shutdown. When trying to re-start it simply wouldn't. We had the student's wife and kid in the back and were at gross considering fuel load when we started the lesson about an hour and a half before so we were a little lighter but not so much. Got to give my student a realistic lesson in light airplane single engine climb performance. We tried several starts with the prop windmilling which at a lot of altitude. Then we just feathered it and flew to the nearest airport. The engine behaved perfectly normal on the ground and subsequently.

Don't take this as an attack, but why in the world did you ever have student wife and kids aboard during training and particularly during an engine shutdown? When we practice (and granted I'm in mile high Colorado Springs so we already have that against us) enghine shutdown it is above an (uncontrolled) airport-- just in case... and we had a close one once. I know our demos up here give an obvious indication of the loss of prerformance - I think the passenger is a prime answer to the question posted by this thread. Multi instructing is more dangerous because things to to crap very quickly and if the going to crap involves one engine being out, theres that huge (80%) performance drop. When it comes to Multi instructing, Murphy's law is always a factor.... if its going to happen it will. If you can reach stall speed at the same time you reach VMC, than you (or more accurately the student) will. Thats why you have to give plenty of safety margins.

 

[skyking1976]

Anything involving an MU-2 would be considered dangerous...

SK

 

[FracCapt]

Anything involving an MU-2 would be considered dangerous...

SK

That's a myth. If somebody is competent to fly the MU2, and respects its limitations, it's no more dangerous than any other airplane. Get it slow and sh!t an engine....and you're toast. I found the MU2 no harder to fly than any jet....just one more set of levers to deal with.

 

[coolyokeluke]

The wife/son showed up with the student when I got to the airplane after he'd already preflighted. I didn't like it but I let them come against my better judgement. And we were within 5NM of an airport at about 6500' when we did a shutdown.

I still think the Alaska stuff is the worst safety wise.

 

[avbug]

Flight instructing the most dangerous job in aviation? How utterly ridiculous. That's a stupid notion. There is nothing inherently dangerous about instructing, weather in single or multi engine aircraft, or in a helicopter. What is dangerous is the willingness of any given instructor to be inattentive.

Towing banners, dangerous? Don't be stupid. Banner flying is among the more boring, quiet, and safe activities that you can do. Worst case, get in trouble, drop the banner. You won't be getting in trouble unless you do something stupid.

Flying in Alaska, a 1 in seven chance of dying? Don't be foolish. You'll see more accidents and incidents in Alaska than you will in say, Rhode Island. However, there's a helluva lot more flying going on in Alaska. Flying in Alaska is no more dangerous, although perhaps a little less tolerant of stupidity and ignorance.

 

[DaveJ]

Well, ME instructing can certainly be exciting. A fellow instructor was demonstrating how to properly secure a shut down and feathered engine in a 310 when the student shut off the fuel supply on the running engine. Luckily, he was over 5000 feet, because they lost over 3000 feet before getting an engine back.

 

[414Flyer]

Aerial firefighting is going be statistically much worse than probably anything out there. Its a small smaller community than that of say fligth instructors. If you wanted to try and create an average number of large airtanker pilots killed each year, would probably come out to around 3 percent yearly.

 

[A Squared]

Flying in Alaska, a 1 in seven chance of dying? Don't be foolish.

Actually, that isn't far off. NIOSH, the folks who keep track of that type of information came out with a statistic like that. By taking the fatal accident rate per year per number of workers in the group (non-airline pilots in alaska) they computed that if a pilot spent his entire career doing non airline flying in Alaska, he had about a one in 11 chance of dying in a crash. Of course few people spend their entire career doing that type of flying so that figure loses it relevance a little.

 

[avbug]

Since 1969, the aerial firefighting industry has seen a 135% turnover due to fatality.

The annual fatality rate has varied between 2 and 10%. The associated air tanker pilots association published an article about ten years ago asking how many people would go to work on a given day, knowing that a one in ten chance exists that their desk would explode. Very few.

The aerial firefighting industry has seen an average fatality rate exceeded only by military units in combat, and then only a few units. In peacetime, it's statistically the most dangerous job that can be had, certainly so in aviation.

Many moons ago the national aerial application association published figures showing an average seven year lifespan for ag pilots. I believe it's improved substantially since that time.

As far as flight instructing being the most dangerous job in aviation, dream on. Not that being dangerous is any great badge of honor, mind you. It isn't, though it's sometimes part and parcel with a given assignment. Far better to concentrate on what you can accomplish, rather than dwell on risks and hazards. Risk and danger are exactly what you make them to be.

 

[350DRIVER]

You have got to be fukcing kidding me? Sadly, I think you are serious about this question. If you are a good and safe MEI then this is no more dangerous than having sexual relations with a much older woman, walking across the street, etc.

#1 objective is to minimize as much risk and vulnerability as you can, the rest of the pieces will "safely" fall into place. If you only obtain the MEI for "hour building" purposes then yes it could possibly be deadly.

3 5 0

 

[350DRIVER]

Anything involving an MU-2 would be considered dangerous...

That was the God **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** Jap's revenge on us for Hiroshima....


3 5 0

 

[Tired Soul]

SE it does not matter if your a CFI or PPl, down you go..

ME you need to make some INTELLIGENT decisions....,
if you F@ck it up you'll meet the earth upside down..,
my first ME student took 3 flights before he could get the thing to climb after an (simulated) engine failure at 3000' let alone at 300'.
Anything in life that gives you a choice (by definition) can get you into more trouble you can handle.

 

[flyboy]

I would say that ag flying is more dangerous than anything else. I'm from a gigantic agricultural community in the MS Delta and I knew 2 guys that died in one summer. They were spraying separate fields when both cleared the trees at the same time and ran into each other. That same summer a guy spun it in on my father-in-law's farm. There seems to be an incident every week there. I would say that the ratio is closer to 1-5 there. The second most dangerous GA job is one that requires you to fly into an uncontrolled airport that the ag guys use. No radios, no concern for wind while selecting a runway, and certainly not much concern for the other guy (just my experience here). I'm not an ag pilot and even though I was raised around it, I'd never do it.

 

[BD King]

It does not matter folks. Alaska, or bush flying, racing, airshows, or multi-engine instruction. QUITE frankly, it can all be dangerous. I have done all, and my least favorite is that of being a multi-engine instructor. Why? Because out of the clear blue you can have someone who you think is quasi compentant absolutely scare the crap out of you. ..................If you are racing, flying the bush, flying airshows it is you. You have control............When dippy in the left seat grabs the wrong lever at the wrong airspeed at the wrong time, life gets very interesting at the wrong time.