MD90's off the table @ DAL?

[JOPILOT]

I heard rumblings on my last trip with Check Airman that Mr. Anderson is not interested in prior mentioned MD90's from China that were supposedly on the way in trade for RJ's, and 787's will not be ordered anytime soon. Anyone else hear anything like this in the ATL? General?

Maybe NWA has all the metal Richard needs to expand DAL routes? I hope this doesn't mean the hiring will slow as well.

Peace JP.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

I heard rumblings on my last trip with Check Airman that Mr. Anderson is not interested in prior mentioned MD90's from China that were supposedly on the way in trade for RJ's, and 787's will not be ordered anytime soon. Anyone else hear anything like this in the ATL? General?

Maybe NWA has all the metal Richard needs to expand DAL routes? I hope this doesn't mean the hiring will slow as well.

Peace JP.

I heard the same thing from a check guy I know.....

Besides, who needs -90's when you have 35 -900's coming......Freedom Air just got their first and the Comair Rouge got theirs last week........

Jo, we get third hand-me-down 757's and they get 3 more 900's per jet...........up to 200. Why would we need MD90's......

 

[tbkane]

I would say NO! They are not dead but Anderson is being very conservative. The 90's are still being looked at but they have to show that they are economically viable. That is the process they are in now. Delta is being very conservative in the capital expenditures as they don't want to end up like they did last time with no spending limts. Did not ask this source about the 787's when he was on our flight so I can't speak to that one.

Did say that they want bigger airplanes as ASA/Skywest and Comair are a mess and we can't control them, we would be better off with bigger airplanes running them the way we want to not the way the regionals do. Problem is Mullin and company bought too many of them and now we don't have mainline airplanes to do the domestic we want.

 

[Spooky 2]

I would say NO! They are not dead but Anderson is being very conservative. The 90's are still being looked at but they have to show that they are economically viable. That is the process they are in now. Delta is being very conservative in the capital expenditures as they don't want to end up like they did last time with no spending limts. Did not ask this source about the 787's when he was on our flight so I can't speak to that one.

Did say that they want bigger airplanes as ASA/Skywest and Comair are a mess and we can't control them, we would be better off with bigger airplanes running them the way we want to not the way the regionals do. Problem is Mullin and company bought too many of them and now we don't have mainline airplanes to do the domestic we want.

Andereson sounds like a smart guy and he must be listening to his folks over at Tech Ops when they say any airplane from China is a potential nightmare for US certification after having been in China for years now. The word is "Conformity" and these aircraft would be a hugh propblem for even a group as talented as Delta Tech Ops. Smart move!

 

[On Your Six]

Andereson sounds like a smart guy and he must be listening to his folks over at Tech Ops when they say any airplane from China is a potential nightmare for US certification after having been in China for years now. The word is "Conformity" and these aircraft would be a hugh propblem for even a group as talented as Delta Tech Ops. Smart move!

Plus, most Delta pilots don't speak Mandarin! That smell of Sweet & Sour Pork in the cockpit is distracting too...

 

[bluefly72]

Nothing like having those 75's without airvents in the cabin....caliente...

 

[Tomct]

Nothing like having those 75's without airvents in the cabin....caliente...

Yeah...those new ones SUCK! No air...always hot. Can't believe that Boeing would make such a DUMB interior. Although I know that it was probably the former company that wanted it that way. Most likely they were NEVER in the BACK of the 75 when it is as HOT AS H#LL!:erm:

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Plus, most Delta pilots don't speak Mandarin! That smell of Sweet & Sour Pork in the cockpit is distracting too...

You sure it was Pork?? I hear the Mango "chicken" had four legs......

 

[Mikes Apartment]

Plus, most Delta pilots don't speak Mandarin! That smell of Sweet & Sour Pork in the cockpit is distracting too...

I heard that when Delta was inspecting some of China MD90s they actually found Moo Goo Gai Pan in one of the air conditioning ducts

 

[michael707767]

I heard rumblings on my last trip with Check Airman that Mr. Anderson is not interested in prior mentioned MD90's from China that were supposedly on the way in trade for RJ's, and 787's will not be ordered anytime soon. Anyone else hear anything like this in the ATL?

I have heard nothing from official sources that indicates the 90s are off the table. Lots of rumbling on the line that they may be off the table, but from official sources I would say the rumbling is still saying it will happen. I will say though that any rumors about a large 787 order are totally unfounded.

 

[higherflyer]

any airplane from China is a potential nightmare for US certification

Latest word is that the MD-90's are off the table. The initial price sounds pretty sweet, but the cost to get them up to US specs is about the same as the acquisition cost. These -90's were made in China for the Chinese market. How about this one: apparently, there is no fire suppression for the cargo holds.

At this point, these things probably aren't worth the hassle.

 

[Truckdriver]

I think we should scrap the 90's and get a big fleet of E-190's and 195's. If we get the 100 seater here then maybe they won't have that for negotiating power in a couple of years. A nice big fleet of E jets would help us keep that scope cap at 76 seats.

 

[johnsonrod]

I have heard nothing from official sources that indicates the 90s are off the table. Lots of rumbling on the line that they may be off the table, but from official sources I would say the rumbling is still saying it will happen. I will say though that any rumors about a large 787 order are totally unfounded.

Really? What happened to the rumored potential order of 80+ 787s to replace the 767-300s? Why would Delta NOT want to use more fuel efficient airplanes on their long haul routes? Is it a price issue? How much longer can the 767-300s operate without becoming too maintenance-intensive?

 

[michael707767]

Really? What happened to the rumored potential order of 80+ 787s to replace the 767-300s? Why would Delta NOT want to use more fuel efficient airplanes on their long haul routes? Is it a price issue? How much longer can the 767-300s operate without becoming too maintenance-intensive?

first of all there never was a potential order. Whitehurst was misquoted at the Paris Airshow. He said something to the effect of he could see a potential need for up to 125 787s to replace 767s. It didn't mean an order was imminent. Delta, in particular Richard Anderson, does not want to saddle itself with debt. Some money will be spent to update the 767s with new interiors, new screens on the flight deck, and for winglets. The 787 will be more fuel efficent than the 767, but when you factor in the cost of ownership, the 767 is still cheaper to operate, even with 80-90$ oil.

787s will likely be ordered down the road. One advantage to waiting is that the A-350 will become available and Delta would be able to evaulate that aircraft and use the 350 vs 787 to get the best deal from both Airbus and Boeing.

I would be very surprised to see an order for the 787 in under 3-5 years.

edited to say do you really think an airline fresh out of BK, with a still shaky balance sheet, can afford to take out 15-20 billion in debt, which is what it take for an order of 80-100 787s?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It is apparent that Richard is doing business a lot differently than his predecessors. He is talking a cautious approach. That should make all of us really happy.

 

[ultrarunner]

What's the big hard-on with the -90 eval? Is it that they would really be that cheap to bring on line given the "trade for RJ's?".

Why wouldn't you just pull some -88's out of the desert and be done with it?

 

[General Lee]

Latest word is that the MD-90's are off the table. The initial price sounds pretty sweet, but the cost to get them up to US specs is about the same as the acquisition cost. These -90's were made in China for the Chinese market. How about this one: apparently, there is no fire suppression for the cargo holds.

At this point, these things probably aren't worth the hassle.

That is not what I have heard. My friends on the 4th floor say there is a good chance we will get those MD90s, since those Chinese airlines are getting new A320s to replace them anyway. Our guys went over there and checked them out and supposedly they looked good and well maintained (except for the Sweet and Sour Pork found in the cockpit escape rope hatch) I would say there is a good chance we will get them. There are absolutely some city pairs that need mainline service and not RJs.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

What's the big hard-on with the -90 eval? Is it that they would really be that cheap to bring on line given the "trade for RJ's?".

Why wouldn't you just pull some -88's out of the desert and be done with it?

How many MD88s are out in the desert? IF they are out there, their lessors put them there or wouldn't deal with us. AA and other airlines have MD82s/83s out there, but not many MD88s. We only fly MD88s and MD90s.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[michael707767]

How many MD88s are out in the desert? IF they are out there, their lessors put them there or wouldn't deal with us. AA and other airlines have MD82s/83s out there, but not many MD88s. We only fly MD88s and MD90s.

we only have one 88 in the desert, and it just went there last week. (ship 901) The lessor took it back because of the lease negotiations. I would bet it will be back.

 

[wings421]

What are the differences between the MD82/83 and the 88?

 

[ultrarunner]

What are the differences between the MD82/83 and the 88?

The -88 upgrade was essentially a basic EFIS panel, different engine/systems instrumentation, and a systems annunciator upgraded.

Prior to the -88, all the models essentially had the old DC-9 style steam-guage panels. Unless specifically ordered or later upgraded...which many have been.

Delta -88

<http://www.airliners.net/open.file?...l &photo_nr=2&prev_id=0740924&next_id=0482582

AA -82

<http://www.airliners.net/open.file?... &photo_nr=13&prev_id=0321875&next_id=0310818

 

[igneousy2]

I think if Delta wanted more MD88's they would probably settle for MD83's, the difference between an 88 and an 83 is so small that it would be difficult to have enough to teach a 30 minute differences class - especially since most MD 83's that i've seen have the EFIS upgrades. From a numbers perspective the numbers would be identical as 88's have the same performance/capacity as 83's.

While the MD90 from a pilot perspective is not much different than an MD88, from a numbers perspective the difference is quite significant. MD90s have some extra seats and have bigger more fuel efficient engines.

 

[johnsonrod]

I think if Delta wanted more MD88's they would probably settle for MD83's, the difference between an 88 and an 83 is so small that it would be difficult to have enough to teach a 30 minute differences class - especially since most MD 83's that i've seen have the EFIS upgrades. From a numbers perspective the numbers would be identical as 88's have the same performance/capacity as 83's.

While the MD90 from a pilot perspective is not much different than an MD88, from a numbers perspective the difference is quite significant. MD90s have some extra seats and have bigger more fuel efficient engines.

If DAL wanted MD83s I think they would buy them. However, it is more of an operational flexibility and performance issue when you exclude price considerations. I don't think those MD83s operate too well out of SLC in the middle of the summer. That's the concern - MD90s provide that much more flexibility year round. That's the point.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Another point is the fuel burn. The -90 burns 15% less than the -88 and is very competitive with the 737NG on short routes where the effect of the 737's more modern wing is negated.

 

[Sedona16]

Two Delta managers spoke to guys in SLC today. They both were intimately familiar with what is being discussed at HQ. One of them is part of a team that has been making contingency plans with regards to strategies going forward. He said the MD90's aquisition is alive and well. When asked how many we are talking about he said 9. He said they are in excellent shape. He said it really comes down to Anderson deciding if the price is right and right now he thinks they should cost less that what is being offered. The board has already approved the purchase and its up to him to pull the plug. I would say they are more on the table than off at this point.

Other items mentioned. 100 seaters are still a ways out. This guy speaking said the EMB's are available second hand right now (JB is trying to get rid of some) but the airplane is a piece of junk basically. The 737-600 is not selling for a reason. The airplane he said that was the most interesting to Delta right now is the Airbus A318 but you cant get one for at least five years from Airbus and they are a hot commodity, especially in Africa for whatever reason. I know it sounds crazy talking airbus but he represented himself as part of the team that has been studying these things. To be honest I'm not sure why these two guys had this meeting. I have to think they are traveling to all the domiciles as spokespersons to improve communications to all pilots. They opened the floor for questions for about half an hour. It was interesting when a senior captain asked one of these managers would he be able to sleep on the ER flying into Eastern Europe knowing there were two new hires with less than roughly 100 hours each in type. He said he would not be worried about that as much as he would be worried about going into Africa with low time guys. At the end of the discussion the senior captain expanded his scenario with the hundred hour new hires up front with the captain sleeping in the back by suggesting a medical lockdown, where the captain was then denied cockpit access while the new guys had to fly into Europe. The manager said he would not be concerned based upon the quality of the pilots being hired right now. The whole exchange was pretty humorous.

One of the pilot managers said there will be lots of hiring next year of pilots and flight attendants. They are also looking for even more serious upgrades to the international fleet as far as comfort and ammenities to be state of the art. He admitted the business class would have been cutting edge ten years ago but not industry leading right now. Delta wants industry leading. Also mentioned working on further improving flight attendant friendliness and performance. They are sending "mystery shoppers" into cabins to see who the problem flight attendants are and talk with them about their performance if it is not creating a good customer experience. Overall though flight attendants are doing much better and their staffing will be improved to keep them more fresh and not worn out as has been the case with short staffing.

Now getting up to fifteen 757's instead of thirteen. Delta and specifically Anderson is penny pinching right now to improve an "already strong balance sheet" and be in a strong position should the industry see another downturn and mergers kick in for example. It was also mentioned American is in deep trouble going forward with debt. They service 800 million per year at this point and are carrying debt "similar to what Delta had before BK."

Thats about all I remember but thought I would chime in since these guys say the 90's are not dead. Carry on.

 

[johnsonrod]

Two Delta managers spoke to guys in SLC today. They both were intimately familiar with what is being discussed at HQ. One of them is part of a team that has been making contingency plans with regards to strategies going forward. He said the MD90's aquisition is alive and well. When asked how many we are talking about he said 9. He said they are in excellent shape. He said it really comes down to Anderson deciding if the price is right and right now he thinks they should cost less that what is being offered. The board has already approved the purchase and its up to him to pull the plug. I would say they are more on the table than off at this point.

Other items mentioned. 100 seaters are still a ways out. This guy speaking said the EMB's are available second hand right now (JB is trying to get rid of some) but the airplane is a piece of junk basically. The 737-600 is not selling for a reason. The airplane he said that was the most interesting to Delta right now is the Airbus A318 but you cant get one for at least five years from Airbus and they are a hot commodity, especially in Africa for whatever reason. I know it sounds crazy talking airbus but he represented himself as part of the team that has been studying these things. To be honest I'm not sure why these two guys had this meeting. I have to think they are traveling to all the domiciles as spokespersons to improve communications to all pilots. They opened the floor for questions for about half an hour. It was interesting when a senior captain asked one of these managers would he be able to sleep on the ER flying into Eastern Europe knowing there were two new hires with less than roughly 100 hours each in type. He said he would not be worried about that as much as he would be worried about going into Africa with low time guys. At the end of the discussion the senior captain expanded his scenario with the hundred hour new hires up front with the captain sleeping in the back by suggesting a medical lockdown, where the captain was then denied cockpit access while the new guys had to fly into Europe. The manager said he would not be concerned based upon the quality of the pilots being hired right now. The whole exchange was pretty humorous.

One of the pilot managers said there will be lots of hiring next year of pilots and flight attendants. They are also looking for even more serious upgrades to the international fleet as far as comfort and ammenities to be state of the art. He admitted the business class would have been cutting edge ten years ago but not industry leading right now. Delta wants industry leading. Also mentioned working on further improving flight attendant friendliness and performance. They are sending "mystery shoppers" into cabins to see who the problem flight attendants are and talk with them about their performance if it is not creating a good customer experience. Overall though flight attendants are doing much better and their staffing will be improved to keep them more fresh and not worn out as has been the case with short staffing.

Now getting up to fifteen 757's instead of thirteen. Delta and specifically Anderson is penny pinching right now to improve an "already strong balance sheet" and be in a strong position should the industry see another downturn and mergers kick in for example. It was also mentioned American is in deep trouble going forward with debt. They service 800 million per year at this point and are carrying debt "similar to what Delta had before BK."

Thats about all I remember but thought I would chime in since these guys say the 90's are not dead. Carry on.

So, are 787s off the table for awhile? What happened to the 100+ 787s to replace all of the 767-300s five years from now? Perhaps the only way to get them at DAL would be through a merger with NWA?????