MD-90 Engine Failure - In The Simulator

[rfresh]

When I was instructing for McDonnell Douglas on the MD-90 twin jets, one of the excerises we'd do in the full flight simulator with the 2-pilot crew was to fail one of the engines while at cruise (FL350).

I'd do this in different ways but one method I'd use was a simple flame out. Normally, the student pilots would not notice they lost the engine as it was unspooling - however at some point as the engine slowed in RPMs the generator would trip off the line and this would illuminate the GEN FAIL caution light.

The Pilot Flying (PF) would call for the failed generator checklist when he saw the light. As they were executing the checklist, the stall warning system would activate at some point. This means the stick shakers would kick in and start shaking the control columns very hard. The startled pilots would grab the control wheels and then scan the instrument panel as the plane began a slow roll in one direction or the other and began to fall out of the sky.

Sometimes the pilots would be able to recover but 80% of the time they would not since they didn't pick up yet what was happening with the plane.

Before I tell you all the things that lead up to this loss of control situation, the question is this: how does an engine flame out in a jet at FL350 compound into the loss of control problem described above?

Ralph
www.wxnotice.com

 

[Al Coholic]

Before I tell you all the things that lead up to this loss of control situation, the question is this: how does an engine flame out in a jet at FL350 compound into the loss of control problem described above?

I would hope an experienced pilot wouldn't let his speed slow to the point of stick shaker and would begin his SE drift down immediately.

In the scenario you describe, neither pilot is aware they have lost an engine and are thumbing through the Gen Fail QRH. In their immediate worry to cure the Gen problem, they have let their speed slow while on one power plant and have F-ed themselves.. Fly the airplane dummy!!

In the -80, a great swag SE drift down speed in your current weight +100 knows. IE... 150,000= a 250 knot drift down speed.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Before I tell you all the things that lead up to this loss of control situation, the question is this: how does an engine flame out in a jet at FL350 compound into the loss of control problem described above?

The same way 3 airline pilots can fly an airplane into the ground because of a faulty gear indication.

On the other hand, the percentages you refer to are probably because simulators are very poor at simulating sounds and other kinesthetic sensations that exist in airplanes. I don't know about the MD-90, but at least through mid-size bizjets there are several indications that you'd have in a real airplane that you don't have in even the best simulators.

Fly safe!

David

 

[rfresh]

On the other hand, the percentages you refer to are probably because simulators are very poor at simulating sounds and other kinesthetic sensations that exist in airplanes. I don't know about the MD-90, but at least through mid-size bizjets there are several indications that you'd have in a real airplane that you don't have in even the best simulators.

Fly safe!

David[/quote]

Actually, no. These are Level D full flight simulators. This means the pilot can get their type rating all done in the sim - never need to train or fly in the real airplane. The sound is 99.9% real. So is the motion. Even when taxing you can feel and hear the nose wheel hit the cracks in the cement taxi ways.

In the 'old' days prior to Level D, the instruments and other black box parts for a simulator (we're talking airline sims not GA sims) did not have to be flight certified. The black boxes were actually painted orange so the techs would know it went into a sim and not in a real aircraft. For Level D *everything* has to be flight certified. This means the EFIS system and the black box components can be installed in an actual aircraft - or - in the sim. Everything has to be real including the control wheels, throttles, etc. Again, prior to Level D certification, they could make a control wheel for example, that *looked* like the actual wheel and use it. Not so for Level D sims, you have to use the actual parts that's found in the real aircraft.

In the real airplane you can't hear the engines in cruise, way too much wind noise around the cockpit. So, it's not that. It's just a training thing with the 'students' being so new to the airplane and always being behind it. It took 5 weeks of training for an MD-90 pilot to get their type rating. That's training 6 days a week, putting in about 12 hour days. And all the pilots feel that is not enough time. As instructors, our backs were always up agianst the clock, never enough time. The students always wished they had more time, etc.

 

[banned username 2]

In the 'old' days prior to Level D, the instruments and other black box parts for a simulator (we're talking airline sims not GA sims) did not have to be flight certified. The black boxes were actually painted orange so the techs would know it went into a sim and not in a real aircraft. For Level D *everything* has to be flight certified. This means the EFIS system and the black box components can be installed in an actual aircraft - or - in the sim. Everything has to be real including the control wheels, throttles, etc. Again, prior to Level D certification, they could make a control wheel for example, that *looked* like the actual wheel and use it. Not so for Level D sims, you have to use the actual parts that's found in the real aircraft.

Pretty much every Corporate Jet simulator out there is Level D, same thing, all flight certified parts... Still, a sim doesn't 100% replicate the airplane...

 

[rfresh]

>Still, a sim doesn't 100% replicate the airplane...

Always true.

I found that most of my students were always behind the airplane for the first half of their training. A total of 24 sim sessions at 4 hours each.

We always briefed our students prior to each sim session. They knew ahead of time what was going to be covered and what failures they were going to see. There were never any 'surprises'. We didn't train that way. They knew what was coming, but not exactly when, in the flight profile.

Anyway, as the GEN FAIL light came on and they started to get engrossed in the checklist, being overwhelmed, they didn't look at the engine instruments to see that the generator 'failure' was really caused by a failed engine. Being on one motor at FL350 doesn't work for any twin jet so immediately airspeed starts to decay.

When the stall warning system activates, they are surprised and don't know why the a/c is stalling. Sometimes, a wing starts to drop and they don't pick it up in time. Time for a sim reset and we do it all over again until they learn when they see a GEN FAIL light come on to first check the engine gages to make sure the motor is still turning. When they recognize that the gen failure is due to a failed engine, they can now call for the correct checklist. Oh and push up the remaining throttle to MCT until they can get thru the checklist without stalling!

The great thing about the sim is that you can re-do tasks until the student gets it right. A wonderful learning tool.

 

[bafanguy]

ralph,

Whom are you training ?

 

[rfresh]

Airline crews from around the world as well as from the US. Initial training which means a Captain who is going to get type rated and an F/O.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Actually, no. These are Level D full flight simulators. This means the pilot can get their type rating all done in the sim - never need to train or fly in the real airplane. The sound is 99.9% real. So is the motion. Even when taxing you can feel and hear the nose wheel hit the cracks in the cement taxi ways.[/quote]

I've gotten a couple of type ratings in Level D sims...there are still quite a few things that the sim doesn't replicate well. Kinesthetics is one of them..."acceleration" is simulated by pitching the sim so you feel weight on your back. Your inner ear, however, feels the pitching, so your body actually senses pitch, not acceleration.

I have yet to see a sim that replicates the feel of yaw...even with the A/P on and operating properly, you're going to get some yaw if an engine spools down. Sims don't "twist" to replicate this.

While we're on the subject of yaw, if you make a coordinated turn in an airplane, a full cup of coffee won't spill...if you do one in a sim, it will, because there's no centrifugal force in the sim.

A motion sim simply replicates the things that the FAA determined (probably due to a good sales pitch from the people who make motion sims) needs to be replicated. No more, no less. It isn't an airplane.

Fly safe!

David

 

[Lead Sled]

Back in my airline days they told me something that still applies to most of the sims that we're using today...

The major difference between the simulator and the airplane is that the airplane is more realistic.

I've sat through my share of sim sessions over my career. I've never sat through one that was 100%. They're good, but they're not 100%.

'Sled