"Mauled Man Tried to Reason With Chimps"

[FN FAL]

So? What was the resolution on the big "avoid slipping high wing Cessnas with flaps" issue? Was it a question that nobody wanted an answer to? Was it a question nobody had an answer to?

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/merc...s/california/northern_california/11073633.htm

Here's some food for thought...how the hell are you supposed to slip a Cessna for landing in a crosswind if Cessna says "Avoid Slips With Flaps"?

I used 10 degrees for landing today and it's a good thing landing speed was below Va, because setting that biatch down required full and abrupt control movement.

Looking at all the "slip to land" accidents I found last night on the NTSB web site, I believe the data points to an anomaly (sp?). Either people are afraid to slip for one reason or another, people don't know how to slip for one reason or another or the people teaching em how to fly aint doing a good job of showing people how to slip for one reason or another. Either that, or the basic "abeam the numbers" assesment is not a skill CFI's have to possess instructional knowledge in anymore.

 

[LearLove]

I think it should be "avoid slips with FULL flaps" or maybe "settings of 30 degrees or greater". Say your flying a 172 with 40 degrees. If you have the flaps at 30 degrees or greater and still need to slip then you've done something wrong to begin with. I regularly fly Cessna 150/152's and 172's. Every landing I do (unless traffic/situation doesn't permit) is a simutated power off. I have no problem sliping with 0, 10 or 20 degrees but as a rule don't do it with 30 or 40. Also I don't use 30 or 40 until the field/runway is "made" thus at this point you shouldn't need to slip anyway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Go beyond the placard and look at the POH. Depending on the model year, there should be a discussion on crosswind landings in the Amplified Procedures in Section 4.

Depending on model year, "Avoid slips with flaps" is a required placard, not an aircraft limitation. (There are some model years where the manual says that they are "prohibited"). The placard is an invitation to look at the manual, not to engage in one of the most recurring aviation arguments on the Internet.

 

[rumpletumbler]

It doesn't hurt anything. The reason for the placard is that you can have an airflow seperation that makes the tail buffet a bit. No danger involved just be aware it might happen.

 

[Inconceivable]

"Mauled Man Tried to Reason With Chimps"

I thought this thread was about my last visit to the Chief Pilot's office!

 

[qmaster3]

If my motor dies, and I need to get the plane down FAST. Instead of dumping the flaps I kick in the 20 degrees of flaps, and a slip. Will this bring me down quicker than just 40 degrees of flaps? Or if need be would you guys dump full flaps and slip it if the situation warranted?

 

[njcapt]

What's a Cessna?

 

[beagle pilot]

The slip problem arises from the possibility of extended flaps under certain conditions such as in slips or wind shear blocking or interfering with the airflow over the horizontal tail surfaces. I have had such an occurrence in a C-150. The tail surfaces stall and the nose pitches straight down before the stall warner has a chance to yelp. Cessna merely admits that there may be control oscillations. http://www.whittsflying.com/Page5.64C-172%20Techniques.htm

From this link and other pages, it looks like the danger area is at 30 degrees or more. Slipping with 10 or 20 degrees doesn't seem to be a problem. I've slipped with both 10 and 20 in 152's and 172's with no adverse results. Anybody know of problems with flaps at 10 or 20?

 

[FN FAL]

If my motor dies, and I need to get the plane down FAST. Instead of dumping the flaps I kick in the 20 degrees of flaps, and a slip. Will this bring me down quicker than just 40 degrees of flaps? Or if need be would you guys dump full flaps and slip it if the situation warranted?

And that is the million dollar question. I was in the level D caravan sim at PAIFA getting my butt kicked around when all the sudden I get the NG spool down scenario.

I go right to idle, hit ignition immediately before NG went too low and brought the power up...nada. After retarding the power lever to idle, I brought up the emergency power lever and still nada. We go through the full re-light procedure while on the way to the nearest suitable airport...nada. So it's time to Idle, Feather, Cutoff, secure tings and pull a rabbit out of a hat.

I visualize where I am in relationship to the non-towered field and get the awos and announce blindly my position reports. I overfly midfield and start a modified downwind...I'm at 3,000 feet. Yea, lets have some flaps. 2,000 feet..flaps 20. Turn the base at 1,000 feet, evaluate. Hmmm...looks good...flaps 30...turn final. Egads! As usuall, I am too high! So I slip harder than a big dog and actually transition to a centerline landing in the sim with about 1/3 runway remaining at the end of the roll out.

Nothing came up during this sim session regarding avioding slips, but then again...in this situation, it was an emergency.

I would say that if you have to ask yourself a question on short final regarding being TOO HIGH or TOO FAST during a routine landing and the little devil on your left shoulder is whispering, "You can doooooo it!" and the little angel on your right shoulder is reciting memory items for a go around...I'd say that if it's not an emergency, do what the angel is telling you to do!

After you're done doing your flying for the day, you can listen to the devil and go crack a beer...fully satisfied that good pilots make good decisions and it's not wimpy to take another lap.

I did a go around yesterday after doing an ILS...because of strong gusty crosswinds and because I wasn't stabilized when I crossed the threashold. Ceiling and vis were not a factor...I had the field 3 miles out. BUT...I did take the time to over-fly the runway during the go around and observe for snow drifts and runway contamination and was able to determine the runway was not obscured. County reported braking action as GOOD.

I went up and held for another hour and a half and vis dropped to 1/4 and then wind shifted to a more favorable angle, barometer went up a couple of points, the gusts dropped down to 24, vis came up to 1.5 miles and I shot another ILS and landed. End of story...practice makes perfect. The whole time I shot the first ILS, I told myself it is legal to shoot this approach and if I don't like what I see or how I feel about how the landing is going...I don't HAVE to MAKE this landing work. I got 1,700 lbs of fuel and I can go around. So I did...I went missed and held and tried it again later.

So here's a question for you...you are in a caravan, engine out and feathered and in the pattern of an airport. You manuver and do all the good things you need to do, but none-the-less you realize on short final that you are high and need to lose some alt. Would putting the prop lever back to HIGH RPM allow the prop to come out of feather, thus becoming a speed brake for you...or would you just be smoking your "hope dope"?

 

[FN FAL]

I thought this thread was about my last visit to the Chief Pilot's office!

Hahaha...do we work at the same place?

 

[FN FAL]

What's a Cessna?

Shirley, you must be kidding?

 

[belchfire]

Mauled man tried to reason with chimps

I thought it was about a pilot trying to
deal with management getting his paycheck
straightened out...
they sure catch it fast (on the few occasions)
when they overpay!!!

hehehe

Slip the heck out of it if you need to! Most
of those placards are afterthoughts because
someone fuqued up and sued because they
did something stupid and got bit...

FN, I don't know how the Van's prop works...
is there an unfeathering accumulator or
unfeathering pump? With gas generator gone
I would guess that there is no oil prx to drive
the prop. Never flown with a PT-6; Jetpig
has unfeathering pumps.

If the prop governor is driven off the NG I
don't even know if getting the prop
unfeathered and turning would (using the
power turbines) drive, er, suck enough
air across the gas generator to get the
prop governor working, so the prop would
just drift back to the feathered position
unless there are some kind of mechanical
locks...

 

[rumpletumbler]

FN FAL is always high! FN FAL is always high! *sticking tongue out*

 

[rumpletumbler]

Why not just take the real a/c to 5-6 thousand AGL and test it out? I can't imagine that even with full deflection on both control surfaces something is going to happen that you couldn't easily recover from. Then you will know how it will respond down low.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL is always high! FN FAL is always high! *sticking tongue out*

Hehehehe!

 

[sbav8r]

I thought the thread was about this:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/03/04/chimpanzee-attack050304.html


California chimp attack leaves man in critical condition

Last Updated Fri, 04 Mar 2005 14:04:36 EST
CBC News
CALIENTE, CALIF. - Two chimpanzees broke free from their cage at a California animal sanctuary Thursday, chewing off most of a 62-year-old man's face and biting his wife.

The couple, St. James and LaDonna Davis, had been visiting their former pet chimp Moe at the Animal Haven Ranch. Moe had been removed from their Los Angeles home in 1999 for aggressive behaviour.

The couple, who had brought a birthday cake to Moe, were standing outside his cage when two other chimps in an adjoining cage, Buddy and Ollie, attacked.

Sanctuary officials say they don't know how Buddy and Ollie escaped from their cage.

Hospital officials say St. James Davis is in critical condition with massive injuries to his face, arm and leg. His testicles and a foot were severed and he will require extensive surgery to re-attach his nose.

His wife, LaDonna, was bitten on the hand while trying to save her husband.

The son-in-law of the sanctuary owner shot and killed Buddy and Ollie.

Two other female chimps in the cage with them also escaped, but were captured five hours later and returned to the enclosure.

 

[belchfire]

The moral of this story...

No good deed goes unpunished!

hehehe

Hey FN, how does the van's prop work
anyway? Is there enough ram air in a
glide to keep the NG rpm's high enough
to run the prop gov?