Master's degree and hiring?

[unreal]

Wow, who knew avbug was so anti-education? I notice that with a lot of the older pilot types. I wonder why that is?

How about getting an MBA in entrepeunership and bailing from flying as a career? Any thoughts?

I've done everything from waiting tables, selling cars, and pursuing ATC. In the end, I always missed flying airplanes. I'm where I want to be right now, but I'd love to get something like that in order to build a side business. Unfortunately I don't have the option of an MBA where I'm going.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Bahhhh (hum)Avbug!

I've met a few folks who were a little too educated for their own good. I'm working with a few of them right now, come to think of it.

That's only your opinion of them as individuals. Are they making you feel less smart or insecure? I hope not. That's not what education is intended for.

Education has a different effect on people. A group of students sitting through a lecture will focus on different things. Their former experiences will help shape and interpret how they perceive and form understandings. How they apply this knowledge is up to them and is uniquely based upon their present paradigm. IOW, how someone understands and interprets knowledge will be dependant on how they view things at that moment. The interaction between knowledge presented and how it is absorbed into a persons mind will vary. That's why we all have opinions and viewpoints that vary. We all have had different experiences that will play a large role in how we process additional information.

What you're dealing with Mr. Avbug are not people who are too educated, but idiots in general. This my friend, is caused more by nurture and their life-long oversocialization by society, which is also quite varied from person to person.

Ah, yeah, lessee. Pedagogical. Would that be the art of watching people walk, or selling sunglases. Those darn five dollar words. You educated guy are really something.

Gee, sorry if this is a big word for you as you have clearly made it seem. It really isn't and people around me use it in casual conversation (maybe it has something to do with living in the "Big Apple"). I didn't mean to use a word that might make you feel belittled. Fortunately, we are blessed with an extensive vocabulary which can aid us in describing things more accurately. Should I dumb down my points so that YOU can understand them. If you grab a dictionary, you might learn a new word. The word was meant to encompass the rote aspect of education and how it's acquired thorough formal instruction. It says nothing of an individuals intellect. It's only a process.

Or that you have too much time on your hands and couldn't find anything productive to do.

That's one way of looking at school. I guess college graduates are a bunch of lazy guys without productivity on their mind. Unlike you of course. I'm sure you start your day off with a box of Wheaties - The Breakfast of Champions, such as yourself.

Never make the mistake of equating education to learning, or attempting to correlate a degree with intelligence or wisdom. One is not necessarily the other. Education provides a degree, paper, and the accolades of letters beside one's name. Letters are a wonderful thing. Apparently.

Surely you jest.

While it's true any moron can attain a degree with minimal effort, there are many others who feed heavily on the education process and learn something. Some even go on to change the world in a positive way. If great minds didn't receive the proper devlopment and fostering of their intellect through education, we might not have had a lot of important things in this world.

I WILL make the mistake of equating education to learning, simply because education is very close a synonym for learning. No one is telling you to believe that education will make you smart. It doesn't. Your intelligence or I.Q. is set at birth and can only get lower throughout life (if you let it). What you acquire along the way is called learning or education and serves to develop your experience which should lead to wisdom and some modicum of skill in your choosen field.

Oh, yes they can! However, few would want to...because the only person to whom it's of any worth is the one holding the little piece of paper which as transformed them from a mere uneducated clot into the holder of a degree. Much like the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz.

An education cannot be taken away from you. Don't confuse a piece of paper (a degree) with an education. An education is what has been absorbed into your mind. I would have thought you understood that much. Of course any material item such as a diploma can be taken away. Get real.

Wilbur, you slept with my daughter and ate my wife's fruitcake. I like you. Orville, you bought a type rating just for this job, and wore a blue suit. I like blue suits. This is going to be close. Wilbur, we both go to the same church and I saw you paying your last cent to orphans at the charity drive last thursday. I was impressed. Orville, I saw you feeding the orphans and giving them candied yams with your grandmother's heirloom fork. I was touched. Wilbur, I see the experience of your years creased into the lines of your face, as though you are a chiseled monument to flight. Orville, your first hundred hours took place while still in your mother's womb; flying is in your blood, son. This is a very hard choice. I can only hire one of you, and I love you both as my own sons. Wilbur, you hit three fly balls in a row, but Orville, you wear my wife's favorite cologne. Wilbur, you can recite all the presidents in order and say the Lord's prayer in French. Orville, you can make little animals from balloons. Gentlemen, it's close. Very close. What it comes down to is this. Orville has a masters degree, and I have to go with him. Wilbur, try not to let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

See, even in your silly little fabled mind, you see Orville came out on top!

 

[pilotyip]

A Master's degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane; I found that after I got my master's my flying skills remained the same.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

A Master's degree has nothing to do with flying an airplane; I found that after I got my master's my flying skills remained the same.

Of course it has nothing to do with improving one's flying skills. that goes without saying. Why does everyone equate this with flying.

A degree provides so much more in making a person more complete. It enriches and cultures you about the world around you. You even get to learn "big" words and impress Avbug over here.

It has more to do with being more of a human than a better pilot. Flying isn't everything folks. It's a big world out there.

 

[unreal]

Argh, that's two people now that have confused the aim of my question. Let me rephrase: Will a Master's degree set me apart from the competition and help me get hired? Example: If I've got 1000 total and 200 multi along with a master's degree, and another applicant has 1000 total and 200 multi with just a Bachelor's degree, will the Master's make a difference in hiring decision?

I'm not asking if a degree in Management is going to help my flying. I have my ratings and am building time and experience working as a CFI. That's going to help my flying. I'm more concerned with the hiring decisions going on, not stick-and-rudder capability.

Amish, I agree with you completely. Great replies.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

My opinion is that it can't hurt. If you're getting a Masters for the sheer purpose of preferential hiring, then I would say it's not worth pursuing. But if you have an oppourtunity to further your education and mind, then by all means do so, especially if it's paid for.

When it comes down to being hired, well it should theoretically have a small impact at best. Maybe the guy across from you has a similar educational background which might make the difference. If anything it will help characterize you as a person with knowledge and a broader understanding of things that make this world go around.

 

[avbug]

Wow, who knew avbug was so anti-education? I notice that with a lot of the older pilot types. I wonder why that is?

What might make you suppose I'm "older?" What might make you suppose I am anti-education. I am not. I said nothing of the sort. Equating a degree with education, or learning for that matter, is a false association.

Example: If I've got 1000 total and 200 multi along with a master's degree, and another applicant has 1000 total and 200 multi with just a Bachelor's degree, will the Master's make a difference in hiring decision?

That was good or a chuckle. Neither applicant is more than barely qualified to open the aircraft door, let alone be competitive in any way. In other words, the piloting qualifications as totals go, is unimpressive. Adding an entirely irrelevant piloting qualification does not make the pilot more impressive. An inexperienced pilot is still an inexperienced pilot. See the former examples. You're not being hired, especially at that early stage in the game, for your outstanding diction, pedigogal anthologies, brightspark philosophies, papers and theses, or your degree.

"Wow, sir. You have no flying experience and no great qualifications but the bare minimum...but you have a masters degree. That does it, you're hired, and here's double the salary while you're at it." What's the difference between a fast food worker who has a high school diploma and one who has a masters degree? The one with the high school diploma is probably managng the one with the master's degree because he or she has been in the work force longer. Equate what you like with fast food...but the fast food worker is probably earning more than the 1,000 hour pilot with 200 hours of multi engine time. Degree, or not.

I never told you not to get a degree. I am not "anti-education." However, flying an airplane is not rocket science, and most employers know this. Most employers are intelligent enough that they hire on the basis of qualification, experience, ability, and suitability for the assignment...not necessarily for the letters next to the applicant's name.

I did have a prospective employer years ago, as I sat in my uneducated ignorant state across the interview desk, tell me that my lack of a degree then would prevent me from having meaningful conversations with his clients...many of whom were "professionals." Such shortsightedness was indeed idiotic, and while you will find the rare individual like this in the work place...you won't find so many. Ironically, that individual had obtained his flight experience without a degree, having obtained one later in life, and quickly turned to look down his nose at the masses.

Of course it has nothing to do with improving one's flying skills. that goes without saying. Why does everyone equate this with flying.

Oooh, this one's a toughie. Perhaps because the thread regards a poster who asked if holding a master's degree will aid him in obtaining favor in seeking employment as a pilot, when the primary consideration in hiring a pilot isn't his sheepskin, but his ability to fly the airplane. D'ja think?

I'm more concerned with the hiring decisions going on, not stick-and-rudder capability.

Therein lies the rub...you shoudl be more concerned with the flying, and leave the hiring decisions to those who do the hiring. There's far more to flying than stick and rudder capability.

(maybe it has something to do with living in the "Big Apple").

Please, no apologies are necessary. I won't hold that against you, necessarily.

I guess college graduates are a bunch of lazy guys without productivity on their mind.

No, not necessarily. Not if you consider beer and sex productivity. Also not necessarily accolades that cry out a candidate as the better pilot. What's the most common phrase heard from a college graduate today?

"Would you like fries with that, sir?"

A degree provides so much more in making a person more complete.

"Very impressive, sir. Eight thousand hours of some of the most demanding flying known to man. Three saves, and would you look at that? The congressional medal of honor! Your hair is so perfect, and your teeth so white, and I see here that you self-sponsored through the National Test Pilot School. And built your own triplane. And biplane. And taugh homeless kids to fly in your spare time and on your own dime, after becoming self-made by inventing the musical panty-liner. Every certificate and rating known to man and...now THAT is something. They even invented a rating just for you. You're definitely for us...no, wait a minute. You don't have a master's degree. Good lord, man! You come here to us and waste our time, an incomplete applicant! You go get yourself an education before returning back here. What do you think we are? We are educated people sir, and I will not have you dragging down my complete associates, clients, and employees with your incomplete selflessness! To think that you might have contaminated us with your filthy lack of completion! Look at yourself, man! You're missing an arm! How can you be master of your own domain without that arm? Go complete yourself, and don't show your face around here again, without a master's degree and a complete self! Then, when you've made something of yourself, we'll deign to consider you for a position in our Cessna 310. Be gone!"

So close, yet so far away.

It has more to do with being more of a human than a better pilot.

Aah agm naht än aanimawl! Aah agm ahn heuwmahn beeeing! Seee? Aaah hahve ah mahsturs degrie!

You're quite right, of course. Those lacking a master's degree are lesser humans than those having a masters degree. What an utterly ignorant and stupid thing to say...which proves that holding the degree has nothing to do with education, intelligence, or even wisdom...some of the traits that do go to enhancement of one's character. You really believe you're somehow more of a human because you have a degree? And you believe yourself to be learned???

Pardon me while I pop another antacid tablet and choke down some water while I laugh.

This my friend, is caused more by nurture and their life-long oversocialization by society, which is also quite varied from person to person.

Just curious how you would have constructed that sentence structure if you didn't have that fancy college education.

I'm sure you start your day off with a box of Wheaties - The Breakfast of Champions, such as yourself.

Did your professors not impress upon you the impropriety of speculation in your quest to be a better human than the next guy? I don't eat breakfast, or wheaties. I've never actually been a champion, but some of the people on the box tops scare me. If only better humans have master's derees then why aren't masters graduates the prime candidates for the wheaties boxes? Hmmm?

While it's true any moron can attain a degree with minimal effort,

Settled, and done!

I WILL make the mistake of equating education to learning, simply because education is very close a synonym for learning.

You equate wrongly. Learning, by definition is measured by a change in behavior. Education does not imply, nor assure, a change in behavior. Further, the definition itself is wrong, as one may most certainly learn without changing one's behavior..thus making the act of learning unquantifiable, and therefore unrecognizable, and therefore negating the practice of awarding learning by the issuance of a degree for that which one cannot necessarily divine.

Some of histories brightest individuals lacked a degree. Of course, the tinman was nothing until he had his degree. Look how it turned out for him! Perhaps your're onto something after all.

Your intelligence or I.Q. is set at birth and can only get lower throughout life (if you let it).

Rubbish.

An education cannot be taken away from you.

Wrong again. Through misuse or neglect any training, insight, learning, adapive behavior, ingrained habits or patterns of design may be altered, dimmed, or lost...an education most certainly can be taken away by any number of methods...though neglect is perhaps chief among them.

See a pilot without recurrent come back two years later and try to perform at anywhere near the same level...education fades, rusts, perishes. It can be taken away, it can be lost, and a person can be broken. I've seen it happen.

None of us is ever more than a step away from the gutter, and there, most anything is possible...including re-education.

 

[pilotyip]

unreal how about this comparison, candidate A is 24 yrs old 4000 hr total time, 3000 MEL, type rating in two jets and 1000 TJ PIC, he just finished his on line ERAU degree. Candidate B has a 1000-hour and 200 MEL, but he has a Master's. Who will get hired? Flight time and experience makes difference.

 

[unreal]

Getting answers in this place is a lot like wrestling with a pig. You get dirty, and the pig likes it.

unreal how about this comparison, candidate A is 24 yrs old 4000 hr total time, 3000 MEL, type rating in two jets and 1000 TJ PIC, he just finished his on line ERAU degree. Candidate B has a 1000-hour and 200 MEL, but he has a Master's. Who will get hired? Flight time and experience makes difference.

That's a given. If I'm up against a person with 4000/300 and 1000 TJ PIC, I wouldn't expect to even be in the running. My example from before intentionally set both candidates with the exact same flight qualifications. I'm asking whether a Master's is going to break a tie, not set me ahead of someone with vastly greater experience. Also, whether 1000/200 is enough to get hired in the first place is beside the point. Let me further clarify my question:

If candidate "A" and candidate "B" have the exact same flight hours and experience level, but candidate "A" has a Master's degree while candidate "B" has a Bachelor's degree, would said operation more likely hire "A" over "B"?

That is the only question I'd like answered. All of this talk about differing experience levels, etc. is unnecessary. It goes without saying that a lot of airlines do care about one's level of education (i.e. preferring a 4-year degree), so it would seem to me that they wouldn't prefer one if they didn't at least care a little bit about your life outside of being a pilot.

 

[pilotyip]

Back to basics, if you feel you need a Master's degree to make a statement, expand your mind, or whatever other reason; by all means go get a masters degree. But if your sole purpose is to make a bigger impression on the SWA, FedEx, UPS, etc. interview board, then spend your time getting the flight time that makes you stand apart from the competition. The same apply to a BS/BA degree, you are hurting your airline career opportunities by going to school full time unless you are going the USN/USAF route. Build flight time, go to school on the side and you may find yourselves like one of our pilots 25 years old DC-9 Captain 4000 hours 3000 MEL, 500 TJ PIC, and two jet type ratings. Plus an on-line degree to be finished next year with no debt. How many college kids who went to school full time will match those credentials at age 25?