Management Pay/ALPA's Neglect and Oversight

[luckytohaveajob]

Fact: Airline CEO's make $10's of MILLIONS of dollars in total compensation including SWA, Air Tran, and JBLU CEO's.

Fact: The top 1000 managers of an airlines management staff gets over $100+ million divided between them, you pick the airline name it happens at them all.

Fact: ALPA does not report the specific figures on who is getting what and when.

Fact: ALPA does not care when companies pay management bonuses for cutting pay, laying off workers, or making unreasonable changes to the future lives of ALPA members.

What is ALPA doing about ROCK STAR management pay? Nothing!!!!!! And this is not just the CEO, CFO, COO, CIS, VP of whatever, it is the assistant Chief pilots, Chief pilots, directors of whatever, senior director of whatever, and all the other lower, middle and upper management pay who are making 2 to 10 times the average line employee doing the work for them.

Again APA is making it an issue while ALPA lets it hurt its membership.


By Kyle Peterson
CHICAGO, April 5 (Reuters) - The compensation gap between executives and rank-and-file workers is a growing sore spot in the United States, but it is especially painful in the airline industry, where some companies owe their survival to the sacrifices made by labor groups.
The issue is becoming most prominent at major airlines like AMR Corp.'s (AMR.N: Quote, Profile , Research) American Airlines, UAL Corp.'s (UAUA.O: Quote, Profile , Research) United Airlines and Northwest Airlines Corp. (NWACQ.PK: Quote, Profile , Research), which have made deep labor cuts in the last few years.

In all cases, upper managers suffered pay cuts alongside lower-level employees. But a recent industry recovery has helped trigger lucrative stock options and multimillion-dollar paydays for some airline executives.
"For us, the conflict is in the rates of recovery (of executive compensation)," said Gregg Overman, spokesman for the Allied Pilots Association (APA). The group represents American Airlines pilots, who gave up $660 million a year in 2003 through cuts in pay and benefits and changes to work rules.
"Our pilots have not come close to recouping what they gave back in 2003," he said.
The APA takes exception to Chief Executive Gerard Arpey's 2006 stock award, which may be worth more than $7.5 million, based on AMR's current share price of more than $32, should the maximum be awarded when the shares vest later this month.
Arpey, who received no such award in 2005, took a stock award worth $130,000 in 2004 and $151,000 in 2003. A filing with regulators this month will detail the complete 2006 payout for Arpey and his lieutenants.
American Airlines' pilots, meanwhile, have received meager 1.5 percent pay increases since 2004 plus a one-time 6 percent pay restoration in 2004.
AMR spokesman Andrew Backover said American Airlines "targets median executive compensation levels for the airline industry and comparable companies." He also noted that executive pay -- as in many other businesses -- is linked to company performance.
"In keeping with best practices for long-term incentive pay, the stock compensation that management employees will receive in April is based on total shareholder returns during 2004 to 2006," Backover said.

WELL-PAID EXECUTIVES
The debate is typical of airlines this year as companies report executive pay. United's labor unions last week objected strongly to news that UAL Chief Executive Glenn Tilton earned almost $40 million in 2006, mostly from stock and options.
The airline says Tilton's equity holdings were approved and well-publicized last year at the end of a three-year reorganization in bankruptcy. During the bankruptcy, United cut its work force by 25 percent and dumped workers' underfunded pensions.
In a statement responding to union complaints, United noted that its workers -- excluding executives -- were awarded 34.7 million shares as the carrier left bankruptcy. Those shares were worth more than $1.5 billion at the end of 2006.
United's unions turned down an opportunity to link more member compensation to stock, the airline said.
"All of our unions asked that their participation in at-risk pay, including success sharing, be reduced in favor of higher guaranteed compensation," the company said in a statement last week.
The Amex airline index <.XAL> gained 6 percent in 2006 as the industry recovered from a years-long downturn that tipped four major airlines -- United, Delta Air Lines Inc. (DALRQ.PK: Quote, Profile , Research), Northwest and the former US Airways Group -- into bankruptcy.
The recovery, while tentative, appeared to have momentum in early 2007, thanks largely to aggressive cost-cutting, capacity decreases and higher fares.
http://javascript<b></b>:void(windo...80,resizable=yes,width=733,scrollbars=auto'))
EVERYBODY DOES IT
According to United for a Fair Economy (UFE), a group that studies social justice issues, the ratio of CEO pay to average worker pay across all U.S. industries in 2005 was 411 to 1. That gap, wider than those of other countries, has been growing for decades.
Airlines make the same argument as other businesses when explaining executive compensation: Their bosses must be well-paid in order to attract and retain top talent. Furthermore, airlines compete with more successful industries for qualified leaders.
Maybe this reality presents challenges for struggling airlines, but it wins little sympathy from UFE. Spokesman Bob Keener said that regardless of an individual's leadership skills, it is hard to rationalize the high amount of executive compensation in the United States.
And in an unstable industry like air travel, it makes even less sense for managers to take home huge paychecks, he said.
"What becomes hard to tell is what people's motivations are," Keener said. "They are paying beyond what seems reasonable given the state of their industry."
© Reuters 2007. All Rights Reserved.

 

[FDJ2]

What is ALPA doing about ROCK STAR management pay? Nothing!!!!!! And this is not just the CEO, CFO, COO, CIS, VP of whatever, it is the assistant Chief pilots, Chief pilots, directors of whatever, senior director of whatever, and all the other lower, middle and upper management pay who are making 2 to 10 times the average line employee doing the work for them.

Again APA is making it an issue while ALPA lets it hurt its membership.

See you at the May 17th rally! I could go on and on with more and more examples of ALPA activism on this matter, but I'm sure you are just as capable of doing the research yourself.

UAL Union Coalition Demands Shared Rewards
Chicago, Ill., March 27, 2007—Angered that management has been enriching itself in the face of life-changing sacrifices made on the part of workers at United Airlines, the majority of United’s unionized employees have formed the “Union Coalition at United Airlines” to demand our fair share in the financial rewards that management currently enjoys. Because of the sacrifices and efforts of United’s employees, United Airlines avoided liquidation during its three-year bankruptcy.

The union leaders call on management to, among other issues, make immediate, tangible improvements to the compensation and success sharing program for all employees, address quality of work-life issues, and move up Contract bargaining dates.

“The employees of United Airlines are inexorably linked to the future and success of our airline,” said the Coalition in a statement signed by Greg Davidowich of the Association of Flight Attendants (AFA-CWA), Lou Lucivero of the International Federation of Professional and Technical Engineers (IFPTE), Jim Seitz of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association (AMFA), Craig Symons of the Professional Airline Flight Control Association (PAFCA) and Mark Bathurst of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA).

“Throughout United’s bankruptcy, ‘shared sacrifice’ was the mantra employees heard frequently from upper management. But executives have failed to lead by example as employees have watched these same individuals collect millions of dollars worth of stock, pay raises and bonuses. On Monday, the full extent of upper management’s 2006 profit package was revealed in the Proxy Statement filed by United. Unionized employees are outraged. Management continues lining its pockets with millions of dollars while its employees still struggle under the same working agreements and wages implemented during United’s bankruptcy. Clearly, United management values the concept of ‘sharing’ as a public relations tactic to extract billions of dollars in concessions rather than a principle by which they should live and manage. United’s employees don’t subscribe to management’s philosophy that sharing ends at the sacrifice stage.”

May 17: Pilots Gather in D.C.
As part of ALPA's “Takin’ It Back” campaign, the union's president, Capt. John Prater, is personally inviting the Association's members and their families and friends to participate in the 2007 Transportation Day of Action on May 17 in Washington, D.C. The primary event will take place in the shadow of the U.S. Capitol. ALPA members will gather for a Pre-Rally Event at 10 a.m. A host of distinguished speakers, including Prater are lined up for the noon Rally.
Greedy corporations and a heartless administration initiated an all-out assault on transportation workers after 9/11. Managements and anti-worker politicians used bankruptcy, oil prices, the Iraq War, and even the threat of liquidation as anti-union weapons.

This year, however, pilots and other transportation workers are taking their professions back. The airline industry will see a healthy profit, providing unions an opportunity to renegotiate with managements now—rejuvenating destroyed pensions, shrunken paychecks, trashed work rules, and shattered lives.

“The only way we can stop the ‘race to the bottom’ and take back what is rightfully ours is to work together, with cooperation and mutual support. Whatever harms one pilot harms the entire profession,” Prater says. “Show your mutual support for the entire transportation industry by attending the May 17 Transportation Workers Day of Action.”

The IAM organized this event, saying that “transportation workers need a government that will work with unions to develop a pro-worker labor policy, protect and promote U.S. jobs, defend pensions and Social Security, and make affordable and quality health care for all Americans a priority. We demand fairness – Enough is Enough!”

“I challenge our members today to rise to the challenge and stand up for our profession and, more importantly, for each other,” Prater says. “We are union pilots, and we’re takin’ it back.”

Release #07.NWA
March 1, 2007
Pilots of Northwest Airlines Picket To Demand a Share in NWA's Success
BLOOMINGTON, MINN. – Pilots of Northwest Airlines will conduct informational picketing March 7 at the Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport to demand a share in Northwest Airlines’ financial success in return for their deep concessions made in Bankruptcy Court to save Northwest Airlines from liquidation.
Who:
Northwest Airlines pilots.
Great visuals of pilots picketing in uniform. Pilot spokesmen will be available.
When:
Wednesday, March 7, 2007, 4:15 p.m. – 6:15 p.m. CST
Where:
Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport
Ticketing level at the Lindbergh Terminal
Why:
Northwest is on far better financial footing than the grim Chapter 11 business plan that NWA executives sold to the Bankruptcy Court last year to support their ultimatums for deep employee concessions. As a result, Northwest pilots demand to share in the company's success by quickly regaining their lost pay, benefits, and work rules.
Pilots at Northwest deserve REAL profit- and success-sharing plans.
NWA's profit- and success-sharing programs are a farce because NWA pilots will receive only pennies on the dollar compared to the amount of pay and work rule concessions pilots conceded in Bankruptcy Court. The potential of a few thousand dollars a year for each pilot falls far short of making up for an annual $40,000 to $100,000 pay cut.
Even the inclusion of the Northwest pilots' claim sale proceeds would at best return only about 20 cents on every dollar conceded.
Expect Northwest Airlines to soon announce an outrageous compensation plan for approximately 400 NWA executives, including the NWA CEO and NWA executive vice presidents.
Northwest pilots’ concessions were intended to save Northwest Airlines, NOT to enrich Northwest executives.
Background:
Northwest pilots agreed last year in Bankruptcy Court to give $358 million annually (including a 23.9 percent pay cut) to help the company avoid liquidation. This sacrifice was in addition to the $265 million (including a 15 percent pay cut) annual concession Northwest pilots gave in December 2004. Northwest pilots' total concession of $623 million a year totals more than $4 billion through 2011.

 

[DH106]

Not flame, but a legitimate question... I agree that ALPA is useless. But, when the APA agreed to concessions, why didn't the APA simultaneously construct language preventing these abusive executive bonuses at AA?

 

[Occam's Razor]

RE: "Not flame, but a legitimate question... I agree that ALPA is useless."

Exhibit "B". There are no minimum mental standards to be pilot.

Other quips I'm sure you've composed at the height of your genius:

"I'm not bragging here, but am I the greatest, or what!"
"Not an insult, but why are you such a profound loser?"
"This is a legitimate question: Why's the alphabet in that order...is it because of that song?"
"I"m not being judgemental, but I've determined that you're a waste of skin."

Sober up...or don't breed.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

April 8, 2007, 10:50AM
American Airlines' labor relations on the rocks

By DAVID KOENIG
Associated Press
FORT WORTH — Union leaders have many ways to vent their displeasure at corporate executives. They can file grievances, write letters or organize picketing.
Tommie Hutto-Blake showed a movie.
The president of the flight attendants' union at American Airlines wanted to tell Chief Executive Gerard Arpey that labor relations are rocky because American will give millions in bonuses to executives but not to rank-and-file workers.
Hutto-Blake says the bonuses — which will total an estimated $175 million for 1,000 managers — don't match Arpey's motto to labor: "Pull together, win together."
So at a meeting of about 20 labor leaders and top executives, including Arpey, Hutto-Blake showed Collision Course, a 1980s documentary about the union-management strife that helped sink Eastern Airlines.
"Their slogan was 'Working together,'" Hutto-Blake said of Eastern. "Somebody else tried to do this before. It was so eerie. It's a difficult film because we all know the ending."
Hutto-Blake and other union leaders say that slogans aside, labor-management relations at the nation's largest airline are the worst since 2003, when Arpey replaced an unpopular CEO and saved the company from bankruptcy. And they point to those bonuses.
Arpey, who declined a bonus last year, will get about $7.6 million in stock at the current price for shares of American's parent, AMR Corp. The next two highest-ranking officers would get $8 million between them, according to union calculations.
The payments have been around for several years and used to be in cash, but in much smaller amounts. The payout this month would, at AMR's current share price, equal three-fourths of the company's $231 million profit for all of 2006.
As in past years, rank-and-file employees won't get them.
The payouts are pegged only to AMR's stock price from 2004 through 2006. In that time, the shares rose from $12.95 to $30.23, as AMR rebounded from near-bankruptcy to earn its first profit in six years.
American officials say executives are paid in the middle of the pack for comparable jobs inside and out of the airline business. They say Arpey's salary ($526,620 in 2005, the last figure available) is half the median of CEOs at companies of similar size.
And they defend the stock payouts, saying they account for up to one-fourth of managers' compensation and aren't guaranteed. If AMR stock falls, they don't get the "performance shares" — the term the company prefers to "bonuses."
But union officials say it was their members who made the payouts possible. In 2003, with AMR on the brink of bankruptcy, they took pay cuts of 15 to 23 percent, helping AMR cut its labor costs by $1.8 billion per year and recover from a recession, terror attacks and increased competition in the airline industry.
They bristle that while rivals Continental Airlines Inc. and Delta Air Lines Inc. shared profits for 2006, AMR did not.
"There is no notion of shared rewards," said Ralph Hunter, president of the pilots union. He said employee sacrifices made it possible for AMR to earn a profit in 2006 after five straight money-losing years, while management took smaller pay cuts.
Company officials respond that AMR is on track to pay profit-sharing for 2007. And they say employees are already benefiting richly from the run-up in AMR's stock because they got options for 38 million shares back in 2003.
Those options carried a strike price of $5 a share, and half had been exercised by the end of 2006, officials said. On paper, they estimate that the options are worth $1 billion today.
In addition, AMR has kept its defined-benefit pension plan — unlike several carriers who filed for bankruptcy.
"Our employees by and large are still better off than if they had Continental's contract plus Continental's profit-sharing," said Mark Burdette, AMR's vice president of employee relations.
Union complaints over management bonuses are erupting just as the unions are beginning to bargain for new contracts to replace the concessionary deals they approved in 2003.
The pilots' union recently started negotiations on a new contract to take effect in May 2008. The Transport Workers Union, which represents mechanics and other ground workers, will begin bargaining this fall, to be followed early next year by the flight attendants.
Hutto-Blake said flight attendants want "considerable" restoration of wages and benefits to pre-2003 levels.
AMR tried to charge retirees more for using out-of-network doctors and to change drug coverage, but it backed down in February after the flight attendants protested, according to union and company officials.
Hutto-Blake figures the company will take another run at retiree health benefits during contract talks.
Hunter said the pilots haven't exchanged specific proposals with the company yet, but they want "a pretty significant recapturing of our purchasing power."
The negotiations will be watched closely on Wall Street as a test of American's ability to control costs. Philip Baggaley, an analyst with Standard & Poor's. said American has some leverage going into negotiations because other carriers have lowered their labor costs through the bankruptcy process.
"AMR currently has somewhat higher labor costs than the other legacy carriers, not to mention the low-cost carriers," Baggaley said. "Anything that further widens that gap would be a concern."
American endured a flight attendant strike in 1993, a pilot sickout in 1999 and an open revolt — over executive perks — in 2003. Just a few months ago, conflict between management and pilots helped scuttle American's bid for a new U.S.-China route.
But there have also been several labor-management success stories on Arpey's watch.
First, AMR avoided bankruptcy, which would likely have wiped out employees' pensions. The company and the unions lobbied successfully in Washington for pension relief. The Transport Workers Union cooperated with the company to cut costs and attract outside work that might have saved a Tulsa, Okla., facility from shutting down.
Hunter said, however, that the bonuses have ended a period of relative labor harmony and "led to a shift back to a more traditional relationship — an adversarial bargaining relationship."
The pilots might even try to mimic the stock-based bonuses for management. Burdette said the union has asked about it in early negotiations sessions.
Burdette conceded that the stock payouts have affected morale at the 70,000-employee airline, "but they continue to come to work, do their jobs and do them well. They've been around a long time, and they know their future is tied to the success of American."

 

[luckytohaveajob]

$231M AMR 2006 Profit---$175M paid in Management Bonuses

3/4 of AMR total 2006 profits paid in bonuses!!!!!!!!

"Working Together"- what other airlines use that slogan? Do you think you are part of the team?


ALPA's May 17, 2007 rally is about four plus years late. Where was ALPA in the late 1990's when management was skimming the cream with record profits setting us up with nothing in the bank for the next downturn?

Where was ALPA the last four years when management paid themselves bonuses for losing less than the competition, furloughing 10,000 pilots, and using bankruptcy as a tool of business?

ALPA's 2007 rally is public relations damage control after the disaster.

 

[Sig]

"I'm not bragging here, but am I the greatest, or what!"
"Not an insult, but why are you such a profound loser?"
"This is a legitimate question: Why's the alphabet in that order...is it because of that song?"
"I"m not being judgemental, but I've determined that you're a waste of skin."

Sober up...or don't breed.

You did it again, Razor. That was hilarious.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are so filled with misinformation, ignorance and emotion it is difficult to reason with you..... but for the sake of others who are riding the fence of pragmatism, logic and professionalism.....

ALPA's May 17, 2007 rally is about four plus years late. Where was ALPA in the late 1990's when management was skimming the cream with record profits setting us up with nothing in the bank for the next downturn?

In the late 90's ALPA was getting the best CBA's industry wide. UAL2000 and DAL2001. IOW they were getting a piece of the profits... Recently ALPA got FEDEX2006. A nice foundation on which to build...

Where was ALPA the last four years when management paid themselves bonuses for losing less than the competition, furloughing 10,000 pilots, and using bankruptcy as a tool of business?

ALPA was doing damage control. And the pilots by voting democratically, supported this hence the ratified concessionary TA's. If you want answers then go to your crewroom stand on a chair and start asking the hardcore questions...

ALPA's 2007 rally is public relations damage control after the disaster.

Not sure if you are hung over, just got chewed out by the wife becuase her expectations aren't being met too or you just need to scratch your mangina...

You started this post with the union welfare mentaility... what is my union doing for me.. then you got answers.. May 17th... but that wasn't good enough.. it was four years too late...

Grow up. Some of us are trying to make this place better despite the carnage. You are only holding us down...

 

[whymeworry?]

I am a unionist to the core. That said, I am completely disgusted with ALPA and merely hanging on by a thread.

If JP doesn't grab the bull by the horns and wrestle execs, judges, and the attorneys quickly many if us will push for our own in-house unions or shun labor altogether. The baby boomers have paved the way in everything in our country.. except labor. They have been the leaders of our MECs for the past 5 years and folded at every difficult juncture. Get it together guys... You allowed our industry to get pummeled, now you want to pummel your fellow pilot by increasing the retirement age so that you can fix your own mistakes. The baby boomers have proven to be the biggest diappointment labor has ever seen. JP needs to realize this if he expects to define his legacy within ALPA. DW RUINED ALPA, JP has an oppontunity to save our sinking ship. Wonder what will happen.

If given the choice today, I would prefer an in-house union to POS ALPA. But since we don't have a choice at the moment...

Suggestions for JP:
1) Start the RLA CHANGE process immediately
2) Move to have all the CH 11 judges that worked against labor disbarred. APA accomplished this in the early 1990s after they discovered back door deals made for these judges.
3) Accountabilty within. The apethetic pilot shares responsibility in this process. Most pilots don't have a clue what's happening in their own MECs. When the contract goes in the toilet they blame ALPA and the company when in fact it is their elected reps who are 100% responsible for approving a crappy T.A. Members need to get involved in their own careers. Stop writing lame articles in ALPA magazine and instead go after the ignorant whining pilot who caused his demise by voting in some tool-bag rep.
4) Ramifications for the reps. Elected reps who squander opportunity ought to be held to account. At my airline the former negotiating chairman cut his own deal to get THE DEAL done... He joined the training department after the conessionary contract was signed. He has NEVER had to fly under our PBS system that he negotiated, which has virtually destroyed our QOL. Now he sits compfortably tucked away in the trng dept while he awaits a better contract in '08. Pathetic!
5) HIRE BETTER LAWYERS! ALPA lawyers are a joke. They have lost against mgmt at every turn. Why ALPA national continues to tout their name is beyond me. If labor leaders are afraid to lead because of legal ramifications, then get some lawyers with some teeth. Our lawyers are $400,000/ yr "Yes" men.

Nuff said!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If JP doesn't grab the bull by the horns and wrestle execs, judges, and the attorneys quickly many if us willl push for our own in-house unions or shun labor altogether. The baby boomers have paved the way in everything in our country.. except in labor.

So the problem is the BB (agreed) but it is Praters problem?

Get it together guys... You allowed our industry to get pummeled, now you want to pummel your fellow pilot by increasing the retirement age so that you can fi your own mistakes. The baby boomers have proven to be the biggest diappointment labor has ever seen.

So the its the pilots who need to get it together! What about Prater?

If given the choice today, I would prefer an in-house union to POS ALPA.

ok.

Suggestions for JP:
1) Start the RLA process immediately

Give money to the PAC. Prater has the gun.. he just needs ammo. PAC money is the the ammo.

2) Move to have all the CH 11 judges that worked against labor disbarred. APA accomplished this in the early 1990s after they discovered back door deals made for these judges.

Do you intend to do this legally or illegally. If legally...HOW?

3) Accountabilty within. The apethetic pilot shares responsibility in this process. Most pilots don't have a clue what's happening in their own MECs. When the contract goes in the toilet they blame ALPA and the company when in fact it is their elected reps who are 100% responsible for approving a crappy T.A. Members need to get involved in their own careers.

This is where my efforts are totally focused. Without a fully engaged membership the leadership has no one to follow.

4) Ramifications for the reps. Elected reps who squander opportunity ought to be held to account. At my airline the former negotiating chairman cut his own deal to get THE DEAL done... He joined the training department after the cocessionary contract was signed. He has NEVER had to fly under our PBS system that he negotiated, which has virtually destroyed our QOL. Now he sits compfortably tucked away in the trng dept while he awaits a better contract in '08. Pathetic.

Valid point. Those who refuse to particapte in politics will be ruled by thier inferiors.

A problem with the volunteer army of unions. Why would a talented leader/manager volunteer to his union? What is the incentive? He is a do gooder boy scout type that likes to get kicked in the balls?

5) HIRE BETTER LAWYERS! ALPA lawyers are a joke. They have lost against mgmt at every turn. Why ALPA national continues to tout their name is beyond me. If labor leaders are afraid to lead because of legal ramifications, then get some lawyers with some teeth. Our lawyers are $400,000/ yr "Yes" men.

I disagree... but if that is what you believe....

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Rez,

I am not hung over, in a bad marriage, or needing to scratch whatever.

ALPA failed to mind the store. ALPA has allowed similar situations such as 3/4 of a yearly profit being spent in bonuses to occur at all the legacy ALPA carriers.

ALPA failed to list payouts. ALPA failed to include the waste in the need for concessions. ALPA failed to protect its membership.

If you think I am crazy for being outraged over 3/4 of a yearly profit being paid in management bonus money to 1000 criminals, it just makes me wonder how crazy you are for not being outraged and recognizing that this has happened way before the May 17, 2007 rally. ALPA is guilty of neglect and oversight concerning management bonuses for the long term.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Rez,

I just flew with an ex-Comair pilot who was part of the 89 day strike. The issues of the Comair strike have nothing to do with this post. The issue is why is that the only strike carried out in the last 10 years?

After the crap we have been through were was labor's hammer the last 10 years? It was left idle as you and your henchmen crammed furlough after concession down our throats in fear after fear of wanting to work with management.

Look what working with management has gotten us. 3/4 of a yearly profit going to bonuses.

You say $400,000 is a reasonable salary for a union official. How is someone making $400,000 a year in touch with those making $20k to $100k? They are not. ALPA national is just as much scum as XYZ airline management.

Plus the LEC reps. could careless about the pilots they represent. The LEC reps. are so interested in spinning the truth they don't know what the truth is.

I have seen them in complete denial about what they vote to approve. They sit there and tell you that you are mistaken, ignorant, or emotional while they stick a knife in the back of your career.

If an airline cannot make a huge profit flying 90% load factors it doesn't deserve to exist. It is rotten to the core management and union alike.

 

[fr8doggie]

Rez,

I just flew with an ex-Comair pilot who was part of the 89 day strike. The issues of the Comair strike have nothing to do with this post. The issue is why is that the only strike carried out in the last 10 years?

Maybe because it wasn't?

Ever heard of NWA? They successfully struck in SEP of 1998.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of striking. I hope it never happens here at FDX.

But you go right ahead...

BTW, APA wasn't too successful when they tried to strike. I think that they also had a $40M fine levied against them for something illegal.

Independent unions aren't any better than ALPA. It's the local membership/leadership that makes the difference.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

When a union is more concerned with protecting itself than it's membership the union has no purpose.

Labor has impaled itself thinking it can negotiate without striking. Without the strike threat followed by the strike management, the federal mediators, the union leadership, judges, lawyers, and banks don't have anything to worry about concerning labor which is what makes an airline run. And unionism did not form with legal actions as their only methods of business.

Did the $40m judgement against APA stop APA today? The law is not always right. Bad law while legal hurts people all the time.

There needs to be an ALPA version 2, 3, 4. ALPA is not what needs to be protected its the members. A union is about it's membership not its 76 year legacy.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

It is all about what you can control....

ALPA failed to mind the store. ALPA has allowed similar situations such as 3/4 of a yearly profit being spent in bonuses to occur at all the legacy ALPA carriers.

Perhaps... with LEC meeting partiicaption about 5% and voter particiaption at 33% I say the member needs to control what he/she can. thier particpation. It is hard to lead when your members aren't around..

ALPA failed to list payouts. ALPA failed to include the waste in the need for concessions. ALPA failed to protect its membership.

They have...the problem in part is... when they do both management and ALPA members highlight union salaries. All of a suddent he issue gets hijacked. Ever heard of unionfacts.com?

If you think I am crazy for being outraged over 3/4 of a yearly profit being paid in management bonus money to 1000 criminals, it just makes me wonder how crazy you are for not being outraged and recognizing that this has happened way before the May 17, 2007 rally. ALPA is guilty of neglect and oversight concerning management bonuses for the long term.

I am outraged too. But this is all about what we can control. We can use mic time to address CEO compensation or we can address runway safety and concessionary TA's.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I just flew with an ex-Comair pilot who was part of the 89 day strike. The issues of the Comair strike have nothing to do with this post. The issue is why is that the only strike carried out in the last 10 years?

Because GWB has declared no stikes on his watch.

After the crap we have been through were was labor's hammer the last 10 years? It was left idle as you and your henchmen crammed furlough after concession down our throats in fear after fear of wanting to work with management.

Only 14% of ALPA members give to the PAC. It just isn't enough to buy that hammer you are talking about...

Look what working with management has gotten us. 3/4 of a yearly profit going to bonuses.

I agree. It is BS!

You say $400,000 is a reasonable salary for a union official. How is someone making $400,000 a year in touch with those making $20k to $100k? They are not. ALPA national is just as much scum as XYZ airline management.

They are not making 400K. The numbers are massaged so union members get outraged and focus on that instead of CEO salaries. Is it working?

Plus the LEC reps. could careless about the pilots they represent. The LEC reps. are so interested in spinning the truth they don't know what the truth is.

I disagree. I think it is the members that a have a poor expectation that isn't aligned with the way CapHill works. Airmanship skills have little value in the politial arena.

I have seen them in complete denial about what they vote to approve. They sit there and tell you that you are mistaken, ignorant, or emotional while they stick a knife in the back of your career.

See above or elect better reps. Recall they are volunteers. Thus the guy that wants to volunteer his free time maybe looking for an ego boost or spring board to management, there fore he may not have your interest in mind.

The danger of not particpating in politics is you maybe be governed by your inferiors...

If an airline cannot make a huge profit flying 90% load factors it doesn't deserve to exist. It is rotten to the core management and union alike.

I hate the BK laws too... but what you are also saying is all the BK airlines, UAL, DAL, NWA etc.. all those pilots desrve to lose thier jobs...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When a union is more concerned with protecting itself than it's membership the union has no purpose.

Agreed. Unions are democratic... get involved. I say that becuase union member involved is always low... Single digit particaptions levels..

Labor has impaled itself thinking it can negotiate without striking. Without the strike threat followed by the strike management, the federal mediators, the union leadership, judges, lawyers, and banks don't have anything to worry about concerning labor which is what makes an airline run. And unionism did not form with legal actions as their only methods of business.

I don't think labor has a choice. The power to strike has been stripped. We can get it back... want to know how?

Did the $40m judgement against APA stop APA today? The law is not always right. Bad law while legal hurts people all the time.

The APA and PATCO have done more to hurt legal job actions than most realize. These are the rogue unions that make it hard for all of us...

There needs to be an ALPA version 2, 3, 4. ALPA is not what needs to be protected its the members. A union is about it's membership not its 76 year legacy.

Agreed! We need to be innovative and leading...

Something that would really be innovative is membership particaption levels in double digit percentages. Like 50-75%. that is something that has never been done before. What a concept!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Rez,

I am not mad at you or JP. I am also moderately pleased about my situation and value my life and job that supports it. I am proud of my position and feel fortunate to have it as my log name implies.

I do think the profession has failed to uphold its standards especially the last five years. I want to see more bite and fight than the growling and cowering I have seen.

I do think UAL, NWA, DAL, and US Air should have paid the price of their past decisions. Now whether that mean liquidation, downsizing, or merging ,or anything else, the consequences should have fit the prior actions instead of the downward pattern bargaining. ALPA national let downward patterning bargaining occur which the MEC's should not have been allowed to do.

I also don't have any confidence in the ALPA after watching ALPA abuse me turn after turn the last 12 years. Remember trust takes years to achieve and minutes to lose.

Unions lost my trust in 1997 when they allowed a new equipment clause to be disregarded by management, allowing seat locked pilot to advance when they should have been frozen for two years. The lesson I learn is that the contract is not worth the paper it is written on if the union doesn't stand by it. And excuses such as ALPA had bigger priority and the we will screw this group but protect this other group is not what trust is built on. Fly now, grieve later crap just reinforces the 1997 lesson again and again.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

I don't think labor has a choice. The power to strike has been stripped. We can get it back... want to know how?

I am listening.

 

[pilotyip]

On Management pay

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW a few years ago had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 or 2002 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management who made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

 

[FDJ2]

I am listening.

PMFJI, but when only 14% of ALPA pilots contribute to ALPA's Political Action Committee (ALPA-PAC) it is difficult for ALPA to have an effective voice in Congress on issues such as the right to strike, cabotage, foreign ownership, etc.

I would think a first step would be for you to start supporting ALPA-PAC each pay check. Start with just $5/paycheck and encourage others to do the same.

If you want more action from ALPA, you have to get involved.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This is repeat but if fits here. This is a pilot board so saying anything in defense of management is like peeing into the wind, that it is going to come back to you. CEO's are not intentionally running airlines into the ground. They would very much like to succeed. For lack of other reason it would make their resume look great, they would be doing something no other CEO had ever done. Top management includes many besides the CEO, the CEO sets direction as requested by the board. The CEO has little control over the airline, the airline is run by regulation and union contracts. They are at the mercy of the purchasing public, who with Internet access has made the airline ticket a perfectly elastic commodity. There is little they can do inside their structure. Other high paid top management personnel, in Operations, Maintenance. Marketing, Legal, Finance, etc. have unique skills in dealing with large organizations. This makes them marketable when shopping for a job, unlike pilots whose skills are nearly universal. An issue of ATW a few years ago had an article about “Airline Management a dying breed”, the article basically said no one wants to do it. The good track record CEO’s are going to other industries. With tremendous, payrolls, overhead burdens, and extremely low margins, there is no tried and true path to success. Most have tried to increase market share, but this has lead to low price and ridiculous breakeven load factors in 95% range. What is management supposed to do? Eliminating management will bring the end quicker for the airplane industry, and their salaries are insignificant to the airlines operating costs. Without management you could not operate the airline. Would the pilots step up and become management for free in their spare time. Why is every time, pilot salaries come up, they are immediately compared to top management. I saw an article in ATW in 2001 or 2002 that stated at DAL there were 17 members of top management who made more than the top DAL Captain. The combined top 17 salaries equaled less than 1/6 of 1% of the combined pilot salaries. If management worked for free all pilots in the company would get a 1/10 of 1% raise. (for a $100K per year pilot that would be $3/wk increase in take home) Boy that raise would really make the pilot group happy. Top management possesses skills that allow them to move from job to job and command high salaries. And every one of these managers wants to see his/her airline prosper. They just can not do it.

A couple of points...

If CEO have little control then maybe thier salaries should reflect...

On eof the reasons why is there are very few airline men running the airlines. The old days of Bob Six, EL Cord, CR Smith, Pat Patterson Eddie Rickenbacker are gone. Today's CEO's are lawyers, Wall Street men and jerks. ie Frank Lorenzo. they do not care about the airline in three years. They are transient workers who have no ownership in the company...

Then there is Herb K., Neeleman and Bethune.... go figure...

 

[pilotyip]

yes Rez, but the post was about managment pay, not leadership. Good leaders in any industry are difficult to find now a days.

 

[A350]

All:

You can beat this horse all you want....but please leave JB's management out of it. They are anything but overpaid.

As for the rest of you.....I agree that you should be PO'ed about this crap....but one thing should ring clear. You are powerless to stop it. You can complain about it and try to get a piece of the action, but the corporate incest in this country is the bedrock of American Capitalism.

Perhaps we all should have gotten management degrees?

A350

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

All:


Perhaps we all should have gotten management degrees?

A350

Nope. Most pilots are too nice of people to be successful in management.

 

[pilotyip]

Answers? Bitches?

Again with all the bitching about management, what is the answer? Remember we have to deal with reality. Boycott the airline that pay management more than the highest paid pilot? Take out advertising to tell the public not to fly this airline or that airline because they are rated labour unfriendly? Refuse to work for those airlines? How about this one everyone quits after completion of IOE? What is the answer?

 

[Cobra]

. The baby boomers have paved the way in everything in our country.. except labor. quote]

Are you kidding me? The baby boomer generation is the most me, me, me, gimme, gimme, gimme, generation ever. They should be renamed the "Blue Falcon" generation. I don't equate the productivity of this generation anywhere near "the great generation" who are ironically the parent's of such greedy, lazy, sedentary, non-selfless, O2 scrubbing, sacks of protoplasm.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Again with all the bitching about management, what is the answer? Remember we have to deal with reality. Boycott the airline that pay management more than the highest paid pilot? Take out advertising to tell the public not to fly this airline or that airline because they are rated labour unfriendly? Refuse to work for those airlines? How about this one everyone quits after completion of IOE? What is the answer?

Service industries that want to be successful beyond their ability to manipulate capital must have motivated people to provide the service! Airlines are a service provider...and very few of the upper tier dinks in management understand that airplanes don't take customers from DTW to LAX...employees do!

The answer to what we do about management is two-fold:

Macro - we act collectively (as a union, or as a coalition of employees) to change the rules. Sarbanes-Oxley was an example of what can be done to reign-in managements who risk employees careers and pensions thru their own greed and hubris. Even though it was intended to ensure transparency and accountability, it benefits employees by quashing the teflon managers who steer a company onto the rocks, expecting to slink away without any oil stuck to their feathers.

Altering bankruptcy laws, the Railway Labor Act, and yes, universal health care, are good objectives to protect the service providers from greed-induced catastrophe.

Micro - Hooks and triggers. Contracts must include reasonable limitations on managment's ability to cash in exclusive of sharing with employees. A "hook" is language that requires anything managment gives themselves (as specified) must be given to all employees pro rata or per capita. A "trigger" is language that provides improvements in the contract when certain achievements or milestones are met. Almost all ALPA contracts have some form of trigger in them (in Section 1) related to successorship of fragmentation. Those could be expanded to other areas. In the 90's the F/A's at NWA were wise to build "me too" clauses into their contract. They let ALPA do the heavy lifting...then piggybacked on our gains. Locally, we all need to do that in our contracts, but piggyback on what management gives themselves.

Those are what we do. The problem is how we prioritize those objectives on the list of all our other goals. One pilot's #1 might be my #9...and vice versa.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Service industries that want to be successful beyond their ability to manipulate capital must have motivated people to provide the service! Airlines are a service provider...and very few of the upper tier dinks in management understand that airplanes don't take customers from DTW to LAX...employees do!

The problem is how we prioritize those objectives on the list of all our other goals. One pilot's #1 might be my #9...and vice versa.

And this is whole point of the thread. People move airplanes. And ALPA is not doing what the membership MAJORITY wants.

When 3/4 of a yearly profit are wasted on management bonuses and ALPA does not see that as a threat to the companies potential for losses or bankruptcy directly effecting the quality of the memberships lives, ALPA has lost it.

When management negotiates and says this pilot group contract must cost $315 million annually because that is all we have and ALPA buys that load of horse manure the membership has not only been sold out by the company but ALPA.

ALPA has a responsibility to verify everything the company tells us. ALPA has the responsibility to identify the gross waste of a companies revenue and hold the company accountable.

But to do that ALPA would have to not only identify that info but release it to the group in a marketable format empowering the employee to say enough is enough, we want a fair deal and we don't care about managements pay issues.

And then you have the silly argument of not being able to keep the dying breed of airline management that is so successful. You ask the 200,000 airline employees if they think their management is so successful and appreciated? Airline management is easily replaceable.

And if ALPA can not tell it members the truth and work for the majority instead of the minority as it does it can easily be replaced too.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

ALPA has the tools even in the George Bush era to fight the good fight.

But to do that it will take selflessness and honesty which I see in short supply at ALPA especially in light of this age 65 issue.