Management FO's Upgraded Out Of Seniority

[ReverseSensing]

Anyone have any anecdotes about management FO's getting upgraded to CA and actually flying revenue when their seniority won't hold CA?

Has this/does this happen at your (union) airline?

At QX, one senior manager who is quite deep on the seniority list (i.e., years from upgrade) recently finished upgrading and is flying revenue as CA. One more FO manager is in training for a CA slot his seniority can't hold. And reportedly one more FO manager will enter training for a CA slot she can't hold.

The situation is obviously being grieved, but I was just wondering if this scenario is prevelant elsewhere, or just an unusual, slime-ball abrogation of pilot seniority rights by QX management.

 

[JetPilot_Mike]

Seems dirty, unless there is something that allows it in your contract. Every FO senior to them should be grieving for bypass pay! Now that would be something!

 

[blzr]

We had one or to at PDT that were former Dash captains and were on furlough from mainline. They were originally training captains, then someone figured it was OK to let them fly when things got tight in scheduling, which turned out to be ALOT. It was kinda cool, as the F/O to be the more senior pilot.

I don't know, there may be some PDT captains out there with 13000# i.d's now, but 3 years ago it was a different story.

 

[blzr]

If all the F/O's got together and refused to fly with the guy, it might also send a message.

 

[rightrudder]

At Air Wisconsin, we've had a few junior management people get typed, and occasionally fly revenue flights, but only to keep their currency. They do not hold lines or fly the line on any sort of a regular basis.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

At Air Wisconsin, we've had a few junior management people get typed, and occasionally fly revenue flights, but only to keep their currency. They do not hold lines or fly the line on any sort of a regular basis.

Does your contract contain language that permits that?

 

[dhc8fo]

Does your contract contain language that permits that?

PDT's contract does....

 

[V1cut]

Does your contract contain language that permits that?

it seems so. Sec 10.B
blah blah . . . --> for the maintenance of proficiency and familiarity. . . blah blah blah

 

[Capi_Cafre']

I wasn't talking about management flying in general, which is permitted industry-wide. I'm wondering if there's language in the PDT and Air Willy CBA's that specifically permits management pilots to fly in a status that their Seniority cannot hold.

If that is the case, would you mind PM'ing me the relevant language from your contracts?

 

[Weasil]

from PSA's contract.

A pilot transferred by the Company to non-flying or managerial duty will retain and

continue to accrue seniority and longevity, provided that such pilot maintains at all times
a valid airline transport pilot certificate or such certificate(s) which he held at the time of
transfer.
B. In the event a pilot transferred to a non-flying or managerial position loses his medical
certificate, he will continue to retain and accrue seniority as if he were on medical leave.
C. A pilot transferred to a managerial or non-flying position who subsequently transfers
back to a line flying position will return to his previous domicile. If the domicile no
longer exists, he will return to a position to which his seniority entitles him.
D. Captains will not be downgraded to a lower paying status due to a management pilot
flying as Captain. Management pilots will not be permitted to bid a line of time​

The Company may withhold from

flying schedules up to five percent (5%) of available flying in each status for IOE
and for use by management pilots to maintain proficiency.​

And yes, many of our full-time checkairmen are captains even though their seniority would make them FO's.

 

[Soverytired]

That's crazy talk! (sort of)

Seems dirty, unless there is something that allows it in your contract. Every FO senior to them should be grieving for bypass pay! Now that would be something!

While it DOES suck, to be fair, a MAXIMUM of ONE pilot is being bypassed for that CA seat pay.

Seems to me ONE fo would have a legit greviance . . . but first he'd have to somehow compile a list of all the flying being done by the junior management pilot, prove he would have been the one flying it if they'd upgraded him first, etc. etc. A pain in the butt for chump change really.

I say, don't sweat the small stuff and quit screaming "THAT'S NOT FAIR"** like some six year old.


**(SVT would like to point out that the BIG STUFF should be greived to the maximum inconvienice and expense for the company - - teach those f'ers a lesson)

 

[Capi_Cafre']

While it DOES suck, to be fair, a MAXIMUM of ONE pilot is being bypassed for that CA seat pay.

Not necessarily true. For a manager not on the seniority list when he was hired, his senority begins to accrue at some point in the training process depending on the airline. He'd be at the very bottom of the list, and he'd be bypassing everyone senior to him. That could be a lot of people.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Well, yes, theoretically, so far it is only ONE CA slot at QX being held by someone who does not have the seniority to hold the status, but what signal does it send? It sends the signal that the seniority system is open to abuse any time it suits management, and that the only remedy is the grievance process.

I'm all for management pilots flying the line, but to fly in a status their seniority will not hold erodes the value of a seniority system and undermines job security.

 

[sXeflyer]

Scott Hall at ASA, has a 1300~ or so seniority number, and is flying as a captain. He is 150 numbers junior to me, but I still stuck in the right seat. WTF!!!!! I want bypass pay at least!!

Just another ASA Pissed off FO, esspecially after SLC closes

 

[Peter Griffin]

Im inclined to agree with Soverytired. ONE guy who is in MGT who is flying one or two trips a month for revenue as a junior CA is nothing. It seems a pretty petty gripe. Chances are if they are MGT pilots they arent flying the line a whole lot anyways, but thats pry airline specific. If you are looking for that CA upgrade that desprately, join the dahk side and become MGT and you too can be a CA before your time!

 

[Capi_Cafre']

A pilot transferred by the Company to non-flying or managerial duty will retain and continue to accrue seniority and longevity.........

What about a non-seniority list manager who decides that he wants to fly the line?

And yes, many of our full-time checkairmen are captains even though their seniority would make them FO's.

How does your contract address that? I've heard of FO instructors, but can't say the same about FO check airmen.

 

[ReverseSensing]

While only one pilot is denied the actual CA pay per management pilot who flies in a status their seniority will not hold, hundreds are bypassed.

If the bypass provisions of a CBA require compensation when a junior pilot bypasses a senior pilot, which has happened recently at QX with line pilots, why should it be any different with a management pilot?

 

[hockeypilot44]

The chief pilot at the old Shuttle (Saabs) got typed in the 170 and became a check airman, then resigned as chief pilot to fly the line. This was before the Chautauqua/Shuttle lists were merged. The company thought that the arbitrator was going to seat-protect the Saab captains so let him fly the line prematurely. After the merger, the company gave him a title of assistant chief pilot or something like that, but he does not have an office. He does IOE and flies over 80 hours a month as a 170 captain even though the most junior captain besides him is well over 100 numbers senior to him. We could grieve it, but by the time the process is completed, he will be able to hold captain anyway. Every airline has a few people that find back doors and say "f*ck you to the rest of the pilots that play by the rules"

 

[n25na]

While it DOES suck, to be fair, a MAXIMUM of ONE pilot is being bypassed for that CA seat pay.

Seems to me ONE fo would have a legit greviance . . . but first he'd have to somehow compile a list of all the flying being done by the junior management pilot, prove he would have been the one flying it if they'd upgraded him first, etc. etc. A pain in the butt for chump change really.

I say, don't sweat the small stuff and quit screaming "THAT'S NOT FAIR"** like some six year old.


**(SVT would like to point out that the BIG STUFF should be greived to the maximum inconvienice and expense for the company - - teach those f'ers a lesson)

I have to agree, it does seem as though there are larger fish to fry....like the upcoming contract

 

[BobbyBiplane]

While it DOES suck, to be fair, a MAXIMUM of ONE pilot is being bypassed for that CA seat pay.

This is correct. Further, unless the pilot is bidding a line of flying rather than taking time from open time, no one has been by-passed.

This is situation is not uncommon in the US airline industry. Numerous research studies by CRM investigators has shown that placing management and IPs/Chk Airmen in the captain position when flying the line (as opposed to training or checking) is a smart thing to do. The issue of role reversal by the line captain cannot be overstated.

Bob

 

[tyuwerty]

The chief pilot at the old Shuttle (Saabs) got typed in the 170 and became a check airman, then resigned as chief pilot to fly the line. This was before the Chautauqua/Shuttle lists were merged. The company thought that the arbitrator was going to seat-protect the Saab captains so let him fly the line prematurely. After the merger, the company gave him a title of assistant chief pilot or something like that, but he does not have an office. He does IOE and flies over 80 hours a month as a 170 captain even though the most junior captain besides him is well over 100 numbers senior to him. We could grieve it, but by the time the process is completed, he will be able to hold captain anyway. Every airline has a few people that find back doors and say "f*ck you to the rest of the pilots that play by the rules"

More accurately, he was the certificate Chief Pilot for 3 1/2 years including 8 months with the 170. He signalled his intent to leave the office in June because of family issues. After the award in October he was off for the majority of November because his 2 year old son was sick in the hospital, this is when he officially resigned his Chief pilot office.

In December he flew pre-scheduled IOE that was already on his schedule (from open time) at the companies request, they asked him to remain as an assistant chief pilot, but he refused to move to IND. In January he did line checks for Morgenstern and flew one trip for currency at the end of that month. He took a family medical leave due to his son's health. He hasn't been seen since January 29.

Also, he never flew more than 50 block hours in any 1 month period, not 80 ever.

It was grieved, 747 realized it had no merit and it was dropped.

 

[Propsync]

My take is why? If that person was an FO, then goes to mgmt, why type them? Especially if it's a one fleet type company. All a type does is cost money, that person won't gain any more knowledge or be a better manager with a type. Plus, on top of bad decision making in the office, they won't ever fly enough trips to pay for that said rating. It's just a stupid waste of money.

Now if they are coming in brand new as mgmt., I don't see why not typing them right away. That makes more sense with only one training event.

 

[SF340Guy]

Gotta be honest, I wouldn't want to sit left seat to my chief pilot or director of operations. Could you imagine that carpet dance if you happened to do something not quite by the book.

We have a type rated chief pilot that can't hold captain at Shuttle America, but he only flies for his 100 in 120 days, and currency. Our contract allows 5% of the flying to be reserved for mgmt currency.

I am obviously talking about the new one not the old one.