Majors and *************************s

[Turbosnake03]

, according to the president of 60,000 pilots, to avoid the TSA pilots contract.

yeah worthless is a great guy to listen to.. he is always looking out for what is best for the pilots.

 

[redbook]

Would that be the same president of 60,000 pilots that has overseen the "rock solid" scope limitations that has gotten you in to this mess to begin with ??? Just curious...

You got me there.

 

[redbook]

yeah worthless is a great guy to listen to.. he is always looking out for what is best for the pilots.

Yeah, we should listen to g0jet guys instead right? Why don't you go start an alter ego carrier for FedEx?

That would be best for pilots right?

 

[redbook]

And as for the "walled off" from flying the GJ aircraft, that was clearly not the case. The flying was offered and was refused due to unacceptable terms.

unacceptable terms? Try ultimatum.

Ultimatum = "walled off"

 

[h25b]

unacceptable terms? Try ultimatum.

Ultimatum = "walled off"

I have nothing personal against you really, I hope it all works out for you...

Just do us all a favor and don't use anything Duane Woerth has to say to support your cause.

 

[redbook]

I have nothing personal against you really, I hope it all works out for you...

Just do us all a favor and don't use anything Duane Woerth has to say to support your cause.

Thanks for the good wishes, I think.

As far as leadership, well, for better or for worse...he is still the elected President.

Its really not going out on a limb to say, that a company creating an alter ego to whipsaw its own employees is a bad thing. Unfortunately as many g0jet posters have been happy to point out on this board, follow through by National has been sorely lacking.

This has led to a few g0jet pilots making the mistake of thinking that "we got away with it!" Nothing could be further from the truth.
Many of them are painfully aware that they have done something that is permanent and cannot be undone.

 

[h25b]

Thanks for the good wishes, I think.

As far as leadership, well, for better or for worse...he is still the elected President.

Its really not going out on a limb to say, that a company creating an alter ego to whipsaw its own employees is a bad thing. Unfortunately as many g0jet posters have been happy to point out on this board, follow through by National has been sorely lacking.

Nope, it's not a good thing and to say so is not going out on a limb. But it has happened, has been declared legit by the NMB, and ALPA National has recognized that they've been neutered.

Outside of the TSA pilot group the issue has run its course. I personally think in light of the fact that the future of regional airline profitability is, unfortunately, in 70 seat aircraft you would've been well advised to bite the bullet and secure that flying living to fight another day. The 50 seat market will all but die as fuel prices continue to increase and their CASM makes them obsolete. Now you're in the situation where your flying will shrink with the market of 50 seat flying.

 

[redbook]

Nope, it's not a good thing and to say so is not going out on a limb. But it has happened, has been declared legit by the NMB, and ALPA National has recognized that they've been neutered.

Outside of the TSA pilot group the issue has run its course. I personally think in light of the fact that the future of regional airline profitability is, unfortunately, in 70 seat aircraft you would've been well advised to bite the bullet and secure that flying living to fight another day. The 50 seat market will all but die as fuel prices continue to increase and their CASM makes them obsolete. Now you're in the situation where your flying will shrink with the market of 50 seat flying.

Funny, you sound just like a certain ALPA president!

esp, the "living to fight another day" part.

TSA pilots took a stand. No regrets, and respectfully, I disagree with the "Outside of the TSA pilot group the issue having run its course" comment.

We made our choice and feel vindicated every day. Support has been strong from diverse pilot groups, and only growing stronger as more people become aware of the alter ego threat.

 

[h25b]

Funny, you sound just like a certain ALPA president!

That's the worst thing you've said about me yet...

ALPA has created this mess. If they would have taken the very simple stand from the very beginning that ALL jet aircraft are to be flown by mainline we wouldn't be in the shape we're in...

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Just for the record, fauxjets and golfspleen pftrainers don't ride on my jumpseat, and if the gate agent says we're full.........well, I guess you just better believe it.

 

[rtmcfi]

Mr. Don Treichler
Director, Airline Division, IBT
6242 Westchester, Suite 250
Los Angeles, CA 90045

February 7, 2006

Mr. Treichler:

We are writing to express our dismay over the International Brotherhood of Teamsters local 618's recent decision to represent the pilots of recently incorporated ************************* Airlines. We feel that their organization will negatively affect the IBT's ability to effectively represent Teamster pilots already in the fold.

************************* Airlines is an alter ego airline conceived to further the management of Trans States Airline's goal of subverting their current Collective Bargaining Agreement. We have heard arguments that ************************* had to be formed since the American scope agreement requires a separate operating certificate. While this may be true, a seniority list apart from the existing Trans-States pilots is not a requirement of that operating certificate. Based on the precedent of IBT-represented Republic Airways pilots flying under multiple certificates it is clear that this argument is specious, and merely an anti-labor smokescreen intended to obscure *************************'s intended purpose.

At a time when the Air line Pilots' Association has greatly marginalized itself by its short-sighted mishandling of the alterego problem, it is disappointing to see the IBT rushing to welcome pilots better left to the whims of their unscrupulous employer into the Brotherhood of organized labor rather than taking a stand on an issue that goes to the heart of Labor's
cause.

We understand the importance of Organization to the IBT's mission, but cannot support it when it comes at the expense of Representation. It is difficult to understand the IBT's motivation in organizing a pilot group willing to aid in Trans States' agenda of weakening an established Pilot Union. Additionally, our membership has expressed its concern that *************************
representation has the potential to harm Horizon Air Pilots, who could begin Section 6 negotiations as soon as March of 2006. When the effort to enhance our industry-leading Agreement begins, Horizon management will be grateful for the example of an IBT-represented alter ego working under substandard conditions to support their inevitable attempt to extract concessions from the QXT eamsters.

We urge the powers that be to pause for a moment and reflect on how ************************* representation will likely harm current IBT members throughout the Airline Division. We thank you for your time and consideration.



Here is a letter from the horizon exco. It would appear someone other than woerthless dislikes them.

 

[abefly]

Where can I get a go jet senority list. I want to put it right behind my Freedom list ! THANKS

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

After all, why should we care someone else coming in and doing our jobs for less money, with much worse work rules. It will never effect mainline, right?

Funny, this happened to pilots in 2001-02. Lots of Rj's started flying mainline routes for less money and much worse work rules while thousands were furloughed. I was not aware that G-jet was around then.

I wonder who was flying those airplanes? Sounds like we have a mystery that needs to be solved. That is the problem with rock throwing, never know when one will bounce back at you.

This mess goes much farther back than the g-jet crowd. Nobody is immune from blame.

 

[dwhsunday]

Thanks for the information, I got a little side tracked with all the union stuff. I know there had to be some mature people out there. Just considering working for them, and want to commute from ORD.

 

[Peter Brady]

Just for the record, fauxjets and golfspleen pftrainers don't ride on my jumpseat, and if the gate agent says we're full.........well, I guess you just better believe it.

Although my company does not have a recip with them, I have had several of their pilots attempt to ride on my jumpseat. Usually I will fold the jumpseat request form in half and write "denied" on it..and will give it back to the gate agent and ask her to give it to pilot requesting the jumpseat. Seems to work pretty well. They are never welcome on my airplane.

 

[Turbosnake03]

Although my company does not have a recip with them, I have had several of their pilots attempt to ride on my jumpseat. Usually I will fold the jumpseat request form in half and write "denied" on it..and will give it back to the gate agent and ask her to give it to pilot requesting the jumpseat. Seems to work pretty well. They are never welcome on my airplane.

wow!!! making a real stand there. They don't have an agreement, and your turning them down. way to make a point.

 

[redbook]

Thanks for the information, I got a little side tracked with all the union stuff. I know there had to be some mature people out there. Just considering working for them, and want to commute from ORD.

Your welcome. Consider yourself well informed.

 

[Peter Brady]

wow!!! making a real stand there. They don't have an agreement, and your turning them down. way to make a point.

Unfortunately you missed the entire point of my post.

 

[AA717driver]

Thanks for bringing a little slice of the Regional board over here.

People went to work for Houlas and are shocked when they get F'ed. Hummm... Go figure. TC

 

[rtmcfi]

Funny, this happened to pilots in 2001-02. Lots of Rj's started flying mainline routes for less money and much worse work rules while thousands were furloughed. I was not aware that G-jet was around then.

I wonder who was flying those airplanes? Sounds like we have a mystery that needs to be solved. That is the problem with rock throwing, never know when one will bounce back at you.

This mess goes much farther back than the g-jet crowd. Nobody is immune from blame.

I totally agree that this mess started long ago. Turning a blind eye to the problem then sure gave a lousy result. I would expect that turning a blind eye to problems now would lead to the same outcome. Who relaxed the scope clauses, and allowed those pesky RJs in the door anyhow?

But hey, if you fly anything bigger than an RJ (funny how those keep getting bigger), you don't need to worry about it, right? It's a regional thing that will never impact the majors right? I guess someone should move this thread back to the regional section where it belongs.... out of sight, out of mind.

 

[redbook]

Thanks for bringing a little slice of the Regional board over here.

People went to work for Houlas and are shocked when they get F'ed. Hummm... Go figure. TC

Forgive us, if we trespass.

And its Hulas.

the line about "people went to work for ______ and are "

I guess you could fill in a lot of names and companies right? Maybe AMR?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I totally agree that this mess started long ago. Turning a blind eye to the problem then sure gave a lousy result. I would expect that turning a blind eye to problems now would lead to the same outcome. Who relaxed the scope clauses, and allowed those pesky RJs in the door anyhow?

But hey, if you fly anything bigger than an RJ (funny how those keep getting bigger), you don't need to worry about it, right? It's a regional thing that will never impact the majors right? I guess someone should move this thread back to the regional section where it belongs.... out of sight, out of mind.

Unfortunatly this was affecting the pilots at the majors long before you were flying for an airline. About 7 years ago on another message board I told a regional guy that (I am ex regional myself, although pre rj) that this would happen, as soon as they undercut the majors and took the flying that they would soon be undercut themselves...his response was something to the order of "Your time is over old man, we are the future". My response back to him was "If this happens, you will probably never get to fly anything bigger than an RJ, or at least no paycheck bigger than an RJ's"

Sadly the G-jet issue is not new, just this time the rj guys are the ones losing out too instead of just the major guys. The undercutters have become the undercut. And finally one carrier has taken back some of their flying (USAir with the 190's) but the payscale that used to go with it is forever gone. The companies forced the scope relief, just as they did in the g-jet case, different methods but the same results. The current methods used to stop it by the angry RJ pilots will fare no better than we did back in the late 90's in stopping it. As long as pilots are against pilots only mgmt wins.

But hey, look on the bright side, now a 1000 hour kid can get to fly a DC-9 sized RJ for 20k a year. Never mind that the same sized jet required 3 or 4000 hours to fly back in the 90's......at 4 times the payscale.

On a lighter note, Yoda of Star Wars once said "Size matters not" Which is one thing you find out about flying after a while, it does not matter how big or shiney the airplane is or how small, if the pay and QOL stink, so does the rest of the job. Something that far too many young pilots are now finding out only after having been enticed by the quick route to the jet for less pay than your average construction worker.

In my time at the regionals it was rare to see a Dash or Saab pilot that had more than 4 or 5 years in at the regionals before moving on to a major, now that the rj is here most of you are looking at 4 or 5 to upgrade.

Back in the day when the majors were trying to stop the massive amounts of rj's they were the enemy trying to keep the regional guys down......now it appears that they are still the enemy for letting the regionals get the rj!

My how a few years can change opinions.

 

[Alchemy]

All hail the all knowing Kerosene snorter, with the ability to predict the future. Thanks for bestowing your masterful wisdom upon us. Or am I just mistaking smug self-righteousness for masterful wisdom?

 

[Stearmandriver]

All hail the all knowing Kerosene snorter, with the ability to predict the future. Thanks for bestowing your masterful wisdom upon us. Or am I just mistaking smug self-righteousness for masterful wisdom?

Sigh... I hope you don't work for my company.

 

[pkober]

On page one some one from UAL said that word was getting out about GJ.

Are these "scab" captains at UAL who are mad about GJ's? That would be classic.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

All hail the all knowing Kerosene snorter, with the ability to predict the future. Thanks for bestowing your masterful wisdom upon us. Or am I just mistaking smug self-righteousness for masterful wisdom?

Lets see here, you had 850 total with 150 multi, and 20 actual when you were hired to fly an rj in October of 2004.

You were not around to see the early days of the rj influx, you were not around when pilots still made a good living and you owe your entire airline career up to this point on the fact that your seat became available to an 850 hour guy only because the mainlines parked hundreds of airplanes and furloughed thousands of pilots in favor of the lower payscales of the rj. In fact your whole career up to this point is directly attributed to tactics by mgmt. that are very very similar to what TSA has done with G-jets.

Yet somehow you feel that someone who was around during all of the afore mentioned unpleasantness and saw first hand the chaos and career destruction that occured is being smug and self righteous for voicing his opinions on the subject.

Well I guess that is your opinion. I guarantee in a few years you will feel very very different on the subject.......or would that be another smug self rightous statement?

 

[labbats]

I agree with Kerosene. Sadly, I don't think it will end here either. Too many rich kids and retired cops and military with pensions willing to "live the dream" at any cost. PFT for the regionals will likely rear its ugly head once more.

The only solace I find is that those same people will get that bitter taste of reality in their mouth after 6-12 months of reduced rest overnights and extensions and drop out. So I figure once I'm past the 2-3 year stage, they can shuck and jive each other out of the way for bidding each month and leave me out of it.

 

[rtmcfi]

Kerosene-
It looks like in your case at least, I am preaching to the choir. Not having been around as long as you, I do have a question for you. Did the mainline folks give up scope to allow the RJ's to be outsourced?
I am happy to see AWA secure the 190's, along with JB. I hope the rest of the pilot groups follow suit.
As for the go-jet folks, it is a bit different story. Those guys are taking jobs, while TSA furloughs. It is a particularly bad situation, and it really underscores how selfishness will be (or perhaps already has) the undoing of this "profession"

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Kerosene-
It looks like in your case at least, I am preaching to the choir. Not having been around as long as you, I do have a question for you. Did the mainline folks give up scope to allow the RJ's to be outsourced?
I am happy to see AWA secure the 190's, along with JB. I hope the rest of the pilot groups follow suit.
As for the go-jet folks, it is a bit different story. Those guys are taking jobs, while TSA furloughs. It is a particularly bad situation, and it really underscores how selfishness will be (or perhaps already has) the undoing of this "profession"

Mainline didn't have any more choice in the matter than TSA pilots did. The tactics were different but the result the same. We fought it hard and failed. Each airline was slowly beat down to where they had no choice. Bankrupsy finally legally killed the resistance and allowed mgmt. to buy hundreds of rj's to replace the mainline jobs.

G-jet is not really different at all. Every rj guy hired from 2001 on could be classified the same way. Mainlines parked airplanes, furloughed pilots and hired low time rj pilots for a quarter of the wages. In the case at my airline a fleet of 78 737's were directly replaced by the rj, the route schedules didn't even change in many cases, only the airplane and crew flying it.

I harbor no grudge against the pilots, they were offered the job and took it. What burns by butt is when you get a group that directly profited from the furloughs (anybody hired in the huge rj growth after 2001) who then makes statements like "if it doesn't affect the majors" or "g-jet is stealing OUR jobs" etc etc. From my point of view those same people took OUR jobs!

Again it was mgmts doing, but make no mistake, the rj guys out there that fall into the 1000tt catagory when hired did so on the backs of thousands of furloughed mainline pilots, just like the g-jet guys are doing to them now. The flying has not increased, just shifted.

Sadly, most that got that jet at 1000tt will probably never see anything bigger than that, there are just not enough seats left at the majors to go around........they are all parked in the desert. At my airline a pilot group in excess of 6200 has been reduced to 3000. The rj seats now outnumber the mainline by a two to one margin. Yet no new route growth has been seen since 2000. Additionally the average pay at all the mainlines has been drug back to the early 80's, and considering the amount of inflation since then we as a professional group have been set back at least 20 to 30 years in the QOL and compensation department.

Pre massive rj influx at my carrier: 2nd year DC-9 F.O. $72000 guarantee

Second year on a crj 700 or 900? what 23k 24k?

I don't blame the pilots of the rj's, just don't try to blow smoke up my skirt about how some g-jet guy is killing the industry or how it is the mainlines fault for giving away the jet..........we gave NOTHING away, it was TAKEN by mgmt. The g-jet goobers are just the latest to profit from it, not the first.

 

[Crossky]

But hey, look on the bright side, now a 1000 hour kid can get to fly a DC-9 sized RJ for 20k a year. Never mind that the same sized jet required 3 or 4000 hours to fly back in the 90's......at 4 times the payscale.

In my time at the regionals it was rare to see a Dash or Saab pilot that had more than 4 or 5 years in at the regionals before moving on to a major, now that the rj is here most of you are looking at 4 or 5 to upgrade.

Good posts Kero man. But the reality at many regionals, especially at G-Jets, is that you need only about 500 TT to get hired, many have less than 500. An expensive RAA/CAE type rating helps a great deal also: (get a $25K type and you're well qualified to fly a UNITED (Express) Jet!) G-Jets is hiring street captains at low time as well. My airline is hiring low time punks too. It get fun below 100' on approach, I'm a flight instructor again! )c; Finally, avg upgrade at Skywest, Chatauqua, Coex, Mesa, and many others hovers around 2-3 yrs or less, not 4-5. Maybe Comair, PSA, definitely Eagle, and others are 4-5 yrs or more, but the tutor tours are pretty short these days. Mine was three years at AWAC.