LXJET 70+ seat rates out

[Oakum_Boy]

These are new rates for larger aircraft in our existing contract. Nothing says that there won't be any raises IF we ever get a joint contract.



Well, it is true that if your MEC (not the pilots) wouldn't have had placed ultimatums, then there wouldn't have been an arbitrator to impose this. No crowing, just facts.

1: You're not getting it! In a joint contract we'd have NO leverage to raise your new rates. Perhaps if you give up the B fund and your precious healthcade cap, maybe.

2. Your negotiators drew a line in the sand for SmartPref. Looks like your May schedules are beginning to take the shape that BH wants. Imagine those same pairings thrown into a gobilized PBS system with no system accountability. You guys haven't even begun to see what kind of QOL nosedive you're about to endure. Our MEC knows how ASA crew planning operates and they didn't want an unproven system. The intelligent approach would have been to jointly negotiate improvements to the exsisting software whose weaknesses are already known..

You guys have NO idea what's in store for you. This isn't the L-XJET you're dealing with. They will screw you any way they can, and they spend millions on attorneys to figure out exactly how to do it.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Yeah, the ASA MEC FORCED you to negotiate with the company. They actually, at gunpoint FORCED you to negotiate, without the ASA MEC present. Then, they forced binding arbitration on you. Idiots. You got what you want. And now you will get what you deserve for being so naive. Unfortunately it just screwed all of us. You guys just DON'T realize it yet.

Look....I HATED the ASA dumbass "line in the sand" PBS memo. It was a stupid thing to do. But to blame it all on the ASA MEC is idiotic. How about looking at the actions of your own.

Your all such victims.

 

[CaribPilot]

Nevets has deteriorated into a troll. Please ignore him.

Him and a couple others just simply DO NOT provide any good information useful for moving forward.

 

[Nevets]

1: You're not getting it! In a joint contract we'd have NO leverage to raise your new rates. Perhaps if you give up the B fund and your precious healthcade cap, maybe.

2. Your negotiators drew a line in the sand for SmartPref. Looks like your May schedules are beginning to take the shape that BH wants. Imagine those same pairings thrown into a gobilized PBS system with no system accountability. You guys haven't even begun to see what kind of QOL nosedive you're about to endure. Our MEC knows how ASA crew planning operates and they didn't want an unproven system. The intelligent approach would have been to jointly negotiate improvements to the exsisting software whose weaknesses are already known..

You guys have NO idea what's in store for you. This isn't the L-XJET you're dealing with. They will screw you any way they can, and they spend millions on attorneys to figure out exactly how to do it.

1. I never said that getting raises was a done deal. I was just trying to explain that wanting 20% raises and this arbitration award are two separate issues. The existing rates and work rules (including this arbitration award) are the starting point for a joint contract. Now, whether it goes up or down from there is a different story that does have to do with leverage or lack thereof.

2. The XJT MEC did NOT draw a line in the sand! They agreed to third party neutral arbitration to pick the PBS vendor for us. The ASA MEC turned that down and said flight line or no merger. That was the ultimatum. The intelligent approach would have been for the ASA MEC to agree to the arbitration.

They played their hand in the best interested of you guys. I'm ok with that. It's time to move on already.

Yeah, the ASA MEC FORCED you to negotiate with the company. They actually, at gunpoint FORCED you to negotiate, without the ASA MEC present. Then, they forced binding arbitration on you. Idiots. You got what you want. And now you will get what you deserve for being so naive. Unfortunately it just screwed all of us. You guys just DON'T realize it yet.

Look....I HATED the ASA dumbass "line in the sand" PBS memo. It was a stupid thing to do. But to blame it all on the ASA MEC is idiotic. How about looking at the actions of your own.

Your all such victims.

If you read section 26 you would see that we don't have the ability NOT to negotiate. The company has always had the contractual right to invoke section 26 if they wanted to introduce a new airplane and there was NOTHING the XJT MEC could have done about that. What is is you don't get about that? The ASA MEC played hard ball with their ultimatum. That's the way they thought was best to play it. Don't come crying when the XJT MEC starts to play hard ball back. Get over it already.

My only point is that the only reason why this even went to section 26 negotiations was because the ASA MEC drew their line in the sand! Do you honestly believe the company was going to let an intransigent MEC get in the way of their business plan? They Skywest bought XJT with the intent to replace 75 of our 50 seaters with larger aircraft and add an additional 15. They negotiated this into the new CPA with CAL as part of the deal to buy XJT. Your MEC did this to us all. And I'm ok with it. You should be too.

 

[enuffalready]

Your MEC did this to us all. And I'm ok with it. You should be too.

Very happy with it. Please please please keep us seperate.

 

[Freebrd]

So why did you even vote for section 26 anyway.....kinda a dumb move eh? So it's LASA's fault your pilot group voted that section in? You funny man....

 

[Nevets]

Very happy with it. Please please please keep us seperate.

Fine by me. I don't ever see a TA being negotiated that would bring you guys up to our current contract anyway.

So why did you even vote for section 26 anyway.....kinda a dumb move eh? So it's LASA's fault your pilot group voted that section in? You funny man....

I wasn't here when that was voted in in 2004. I'm sure that that boiler plate language was a huge hinging point when people decide how to vote. Because they all knew that 9 years later (4 after the original amendment date) that some other entity would force management to use that language against us. You blame those pilots for making that decision 9 years ago with no benefit of hindsight that you have yet place absolutely no blame on the ASA MEC who is supposedly so smart that they should have seen this language and thought of the possible repercussions of their ultimatum. THEY KNEW THIS LANGUAGE EXISTED AND YET TOOK US DOWN THIS PATH!

So you see, the only reason there was an arbitration award was solely because of the ASA MEC intransigence and their flight line or no merger ultimatum. Why you fail to see the obvious is absurd.

 

[Freebrd]

Always manage to turn YOUR f&@$-ups in YOUR contract into a "blame the ASA MEC" drama. Ever hear of accountability for your own union's actions, regardless if you were there or not.

 

[Nevets]

Always manage to turn YOUR f&@$-ups in YOUR contract into a "blame the ASA MEC" drama. Ever hear of accountability for your own union's actions, regardless if you were there or not.

You're not getting it. I'm ok with the way things have turned out so far. As far as I'm concerned, there have been no fu(k ups from our end. Just playing the cards that have been dealt with in a manner that is best for us. What I'm getting at is your complaining. If you're complaining, then go complain to your MEC for drawing their line and delivering their flight light or no merger ultimatum and forcing the company to invoke their contractual right to arbitrate for larger aircraft in order to introduce these aircraft into the CAL CPA they paid for just to continue their business plan (the whole reason Skywest bought XJT in the first place). If your MEC didn't know about section 26 and how supposedly HORRIBLE it was, then even more shame on them for fu(king their $hit up.

For me, I'm not complaining one bit. So why would I be saying anything about my MEC's actions when I've agreed with them 100%?

 

[SoberIrishman]

I believe your side forced the ASA side to stand firm by proposing a ridiculous globalized pbs in the first place. Makes perfect sense to me. Since you lot made the bed, now you get to sleep in it.
Don't come blaming us for something that didn't originate here to begin with.

I do hope this can be sorted out, however many LASA pilots no longer support any form of merger with the LXJET side.

Apparently we are as far apart as ever.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nevets]

I believe your side forced the ASA side to stand firm by proposing a ridiculous globalized pbs in the first place. Makes perfect sense to me. Since you lot made the bed, now you get to sleep in it.
Don't come blaming us for something that didn't originate here to begin with.

I do hope this can be sorted out, however many LASA pilots no longer support any form of merger with the LXJET side.

Apparently we are as far apart as ever.


Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

See, you are not getting it either. Who is blaming who? I'm ok with everything that has happened. It's just you guys that complain. My only point is that if you are complaining, go complain to your MEC. Because the XJT MEC didn't force your MEC to turn down the company's idea to use a third party neutral arbitrator to pick the PBS vendor. It was your MEC ALONE who turned down the idea of having an arbitrator pick flight line or smartpref. And it was your MEC who then said it was flight line or no merger! So how in the he!! is that the XJT MEC forcing smartpref on you? IT ISN'T! And for some reason you guys can't seem to get your mind wrapped around the idea that your MEC has been closed minded about this from the very beginning and had already made up their mind that it was going to be flight line or no merger!

Your MEC made this bed for us by not even agreeing to a third party neutral arbitrator. I'm perfectly ok with that, I'm ok with the way the XJT MEC has played their cards. I'm ok with the arbitrator's award, I'm ok with no merger, I'm ok with the bed your MEC has made for us.

Its not blaming but it's just fact that the whole reason we are here is because your MEC turned down the only unbiased way to solve this issue.

 

[COOPERVANE]

Who is blaming who? I'm ok with everything that has happened. It's just you guys that complain.

Because the ASA MEC had already made up their mind that they were not going to agree to anything that had the possibility of having smartpref as the final outcome. From the very beginning, they have not compromised one micron. Well, now we are where we are because of that. No one to blame for that than them.

Tell me what the last sentence means then.

And I'm guessing you'll shift your argument AGAIN by saying what you really meant was blame for the ASA MEC not the ASA pilots. But then again we all know what you meant right??

 

[Nevets]

Tell me what the last sentence means then.

And I'm guessing you'll shift your argument AGAIN by saying what you really meant was blame for the ASA MEC not the ASA pilots. But then again we all know what you meant right??

What I'm trying to say is that we are where we are because of the course of action the ASA MEC decided to take when playing hardball and giving the company their flight line or no merger ultimatum. I've said it before that I think that they did that because they felt that was the best thing to do for their pilots. I'm ok with that because the XJT MEC does the same thing. And that's what the MECs are supposed to do. The difference is that you guys are complaining about the outcome when it was your MEC who was the catalyst of what happened. It was them who did not agree to third party neutral arbitration. If they would have agreed to that, we wouldn't be where we are now.

Do you understand the last sentence I just wrote in the paragraph above? Because that is all I'm trying to say.

 

[SoberIrishman]

You have experienced arbitration recently I believe.

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[Nevets]

You have experienced arbitration recently I believe.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

So your MECs alternative is what we have now. So what are you complaining about? You didn't want to go to arbitration to choose a PBS vendor, fine. They did what they felt was best. So what's the big deal?

 

[dojetdriver]

So why did you even vote for section 26 anyway.....kinda a dumb move eh?

True, it is DUMB.

But reading through the CRJ CBA and the LOA's, do you REALLY want to get into the standard peeing contest of who's CBA has the dumbest language?

 

[SoberIrishman]

No, we need to have the best from both, and smart pref does not fall into that category.

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[Nevets]

No, we need to have the best from both, and smart pref does not fall into that category.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

Well if its the best from both, then we go with our current line bidding and scheduling work rules.

 

[dojetdriver]

No, we need to have the best from both, and smart pref does not fall into that category.

Agreed on the nest of both. But flightline in it's current form either. It's been beat to death, over and over again. And if ANYBODY thinks a future tweak will is being naive.

(broken/skipping record continues........)

 

[Freebrd]

If your MEC didn't know about section 26 and how supposedly HORRIBLE it was, then even more shame on them for fu(king their $hit up. %?

So you're saying it's LASA's fault that LXJT has an arbitration section in their contract? I'm sure we knew about it but bottom line it's YOUR contract it's in correct? Thought so but doubt you get it....passing blame for your faults won't hunt.

 

[Nevets]

So you're saying it's LASA's fault that LXJT has an arbitration section in their contract? I'm sure we knew about it but bottom line it's YOUR contract it's in correct? Thought so but doubt you get it....passing blame for your faults won't hunt.

If they knew about and still give their flight line or no merger ultimatum, then they are not as smart as you think they are. No blame at all. I'm fine with all of it. Just pointing out that it was the ASA MEC who was the catalyst of all of this.

If you want to complain about the arbitration award, go complain to your MEC. What is it you don't get about any of what I just said? I AM NOT BLAMING ANYONE! Just pointing out facts that led us to where we are now.

 

[79%N1]

How many times does everyone need to say the same damn thing? This is literal insanity!

 

[Nevets]

How many times does everyone need to say the same damn thing? This is literal insanity!

That was exactly what I was thinking.

 

[Freebrd]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying, regardless if you're fine with it, our MEC "forced" you into it, whatever blah blah blah.

 

[Nevets]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying, regardless if you're fine with it, our MEC "forced" you into it, whatever blah blah blah.

And I'm just saying that if it was so bad, maybe your MEC shouldn't have given their flight line or no merger ultimatum.

Here let me put it this way since you guys seem to be having a hard time grasping the situation: if your MEC would have agreed to management's idea of using third party neutral arbitration as a dispute resolution method in order to pick a PBS vendor, the company would not have invoked their contractual right in order to get rates for larger aircraft in order to execute their business plan they bought into when Skywest acquired us. In other words, if the ASA MEC would have agreed to arbitration, we wouldn't be reading about your complaining of our bad contract language.

Do you understand now?

And yes, I'm fine with how it's all transpired and fine with the boiler plate language in our contract voted in 9 years ago that prevented your MEC from holding this whole company hostage, ala US Airways East!

 

[dojetdriver]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying.

YEAH!!!!!! Circular arguments that go nowhere!!!!!

Let's see, CRJ reserve rules COMPLETELY suck. XJT MEC didn't put them in there. Perhaps the CRJ group shouldn't have voted them in AT ALL.

Because they're sure as sh1t not good in getting a decent JCBA and affect ALL of us.

Wow, see how easy that was? Amazing.......

 

[centralpilot]

I'm just saying the arbitration section is in your contract, LASA MEC didn't put it there. Perhaps your group shouldn't have voted that in is all I'm saying, regardless if you're fine with it, our MEC "forced" you into it, whatever blah blah blah.

Of all the criticisms that could be made, this is one of the most absurd. XJT's 2004 contract is generally the best in the regional segment and they would have been foolish to vote down the TA over a missing clause in Section 26.

With that said, completely blaming the L-ASA pilots for the invoking of section 26 is pretty dishonest. It takes two to disagree and L-ASA would never have pressed so hard on the issue if L-XJT hadn't insisted on sinking time/resources into reinventing the wheel with an unproven PBS system. Before we go in another loop I'll reiterate that I disapprove of L-ASA drawing so hard a line on the issue.

In any case these arguments are circular and unproductive. Everyone needs to take it down a notch, try to see things from both sides, and implore their reps to find a way to move forward. I believe (perhaps naively) that both sides have done what they thought was in the pilots' best interest, but this infighting has gone on for far too long.

 

[centralpilot]

Let's see, CRJ reserve rules COMPLETELY suck.

Yes, they do indeed.

Perhaps the CRJ group shouldn't have voted them in AT ALL.

They shouldn't have, but we have a long history of giving zero $&@"s about reserve QOL. Senior pilots see reserve as a right of passage. They dealt with the suck, so why should their raises be lessened by reserve improvements? Never mind that some of them spent only months, weeks, or zero time on reserve while many are currently serving many years.

Meanwhile not enough line-holding FOs realize how important those rules will be when they upgrade and reserve is significantly longer. If the negotiating committee won't fight for it a TA vote will never fail on reserve rules alone.

I had high hopes that the JCBA would fix this but given the current state of dysfunction I'm no longer optimistic.

 

[Nevets]

With that said, completely blaming the L-ASA pilots for the invoking of section 26 is pretty dishonest. It takes two to disagree and L-ASA would never have pressed so hard on the issue if L-XJT hadn't insisted on sinking time/resources into reinventing the wheel with an unproven PBS system. Before we go in another loop I'll reiterate that I disapprove of L-ASA drawing so hard a line on the issue.

Who is blaming any ASA pilot? We are talking about the ASA MEC. The fact is that there have been other disagreements between the MECs when it came to deciding what things to negotiate for. The problem is not disagreement. the problem is the ASA MEC's intransigence, close mindedness, and their unwillingness to compromise.

PBS is the only thing they couldn't agree to. Regardless of if you perceive that the XJT MEC sank time/resources into reinventing the wheel with an unproven PBS system, the fact remains that if the ASA MEC would have agreed to third party neutral arbitration to resolve this dispute instead of delivering the company their flight line or no merger ultimatum, the company wouldn't have been forced to invoke section 26 in order to get large RJ aircraft rates in order to execute their business plan, the whole reason Skywest bought XJT and negotiated the right to replace 90 aircraft.

What is it that none of you guys can understand about that? Again, if the ASA MEC would have agreed to the company's idea of using an arbitrator to chose the PBS vendor, as the XJT MEC had agreed to, the company wouldn't have taken the path they felt they needed to take to secure a viable business plan going forward. The problem was not the XJT scheduling committee preparing for the introduction of PBS in phase 2. The problem was the ASA MEC insistence on not agreeing to any dispute resolution idea that didnt guarantee flight line as the final outcome. Otherwise they would have agreed to arbitrate it. If the ASA MEC is so smart and have all this vast experience with PBS, and had supposedly researched all PBS softwares including a re-research of PBS, and all the negative things about smartpref, they should have had absolutely no problem convincing a neutral arbitrator that, in fact, flight line was the best PBS system ever. But again, that was never the ASA MEC thinking because they had already made up their mind a long time ago.

So what is dishonest?

 

[centralpilot]

If the ASA MEC is so smart and have all this vast experience with PBS, and had supposedly researched all PBS softwares including a re-research of PBS, and all the negative things about smartpref, they should have had absolutely no problem convincing a neutral arbitrator that, in fact, flight line was the best PBS system ever.

I agree with this. I made this exact same argument to my reps around a year ago. Obviously it wasn't convincing and I am likewise troubled by the resistance to neutral arbitration.

As for the rest, I don't have the energy or desire to go in another circle on this. I'm much more interested in the next step. Hopefully an agreement on a way to move forward will be reached soon.