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eivieichn

Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2006
Posts
6
Southwest Airlines plans ten percent annual growth into the foreseeable future. As Southwest Airlines grows in dominance and size, is it outgrowing its culture? Recent accidents and incidents might indicate something is up with the way they fly and their perspective on safety. Three recent articles are part of the customary corporate damage control after an incident or accident. Most notably, a January 12 interview of Mark Clayton, the Director of Safety at Southwest Airlines with “Air Safety Week,” a January 9 article and “Wall Street Journal,” (WSJ) and a December interview with the Southwest Airlines CEO by the WSJ.

The current industry standard flying into very low visibility conditions is accomplished by means of a “monitored approach” procedure which is an autopilot approach closely monitored by both pilots actively and equally and culminates in a autopilot landing or autopilot missed approach. However, Southwest uses a Head Up Display (HUD) instead. This is fine piece of equipment, but it is only on the captain’s side of the aircraft. The first officer does not have access to the same level of precise information as the captain and is therefore less able to identify a less than favorable approach and landing developing.

The HUD was originally deployed widely in fighter aircraft where a single pilot had to manage a tremendous amount of information and keep his “head up” outside the cockpit and away from the instrument panel to keep from running into the ground. The projection of instrument panel information on the cockpit front window canopy was the solution.

In the interview with “Aviation Safety Week” (Jan 12, 2006), Mark Clayton, Director of Flight Safety at Southwest, was asked “How do you provide skill in the use of the HUD for your first officers, because they don’t have a HUD to look through?” His response is that the first officers are familiarized with the equipment during training. “They are very familiar with the symbology, and they have the opportunity to use it in the simulator.” Knowing how it works and getting familiar with it in a simulator is laudable, but not having access to it when it is really needed--during the approach and landing--would seem to be a liability.

In response to the issue of insisting on hand flying the aircraft in very low visibility conditions without automation, Mr. Clayton’s response was “you can do that with autoland, but this fits nicely into our culture, where we really promote hand-flying the airplane. We develop our pilot skills not only with the number of segments we fly on a given day, but we encourage them flying the airplane and minimizing the use of automation. Using the HUD promotes hand flying, so we can hand-fly this airplane down to … 50 feet above touchdown. It takes a very high skill level, but it works very nicely into our culture and philosophy.”

A “very high skill level” indeed. A single pilot hand flying a 150,000 pound aircraft with 150 people to within the vertical distance of less than two hash marks on a football field to a five-foot wide stripe on piece of pavement that cannot yet be seen is quite a skill. But, unless Southwest is an aviation Lake Wobegon where everyone is above average, every day, then procedures need to used where the average pilot can execute a low visibility approach as this with certainty of success. Further, the frequent "segments we fly on a given day" would seem at the end of the day to leave the pilot quite fatigued, not honed to perfection.

While most of the industry has decidedly moved to more automation and more crew involvement so that two pilots can closely monitor flight path deviations, Southwest continues in “minimizing the use of automation” because it “works very nicely into our culture and philosophy.” Culture and philosophy are nice, but studies of decades of aviation accidents have led to two very strong conclusions: automation, when used properly, and the crew concept are extremely powerful accident prevention programs. What “culture and philosophy” is Mr Clayton referring to? Is this the culture which military fighter pilots found so popular during the early years of the airline? Yes, it takes a "very high skill" level to fly one of these approaches and the hubris of 'we are too good for automation' could be questioned.

More HUDs are coming online with other airlines and the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) is endorsing has endorsed its use. However, the endorsement was contingent upon both pilots having one. “If a HUD adds significantly to safety, then giving it to only 50 percent of the team is viewed by IFALPA as counterintuitive,” Aviation Today reports. But they go on to say that “cost-conscious airlines probably will resist IFALPA’s call for dual installation.” Until recently, a similar argument was made against hardened cockpit doors.

Several years ago, Korean Airlines was the bane of the international commercial aviation with the Guam accident prompting their executives to consider strong medicine. Against major opposition from both management and pilots, they got outside help to restore their airline. While organizational retooling was difficult “transforming Korean Air's cockpit culture proved trickier,” the Wall Street Journal (9 Jan, 2006) reports. The WSJ states “Communication in the cockpit ‘was stifled sometimes to the point of being nonexistent,’ says Dave Greenberg, a former head of flight operations at Delta who joined Korean Air in January 2000 as its executive vice president of operations.”

To apply the lessons learned in western commercial aviation and “to change the way its pilots interacted, instructors took Korean Air's pilots in pairs and made them share responsibilities.” Further “it also reduced hiring from the South Korean military, whose fighter pilots, as in most air forces, were used to being their own bosses in the cockpit.”

This and many other initiatives succeeded. The WSJ said recently “the International Air Transport Association, a trade group for the world's major airlines, gave its imprimatur, certifying that Korean Air had achieved ‘the highest standards and best practices for safety’ ” in recent audits.

Does the culture at Southwest need to change? Despite recent runway accidents, their safety record is unmatched in the industry. But the recent accidents are certainly of concern in that they could be flagging a trend. In the most recent accident the NTSB states that after landing and noting the lack of “braking effectiveness…the first officer … moved his seat farther forward, and also applied maximum braking.”

During a low visibility tailwind approach to a short runway at night, the first officer was not in a position to equally assist, if required, in the management of the landing phase of this flight. Quite remarkable. Are first officers generally out of position at Southwest to make a difference due to a "culture and philosophy" that relegates them to an observer? Was this a result of this captain ‘being his own boss’ and excluding the other pilot? The first officer being out of the loop while the captain flew the HUD? Or perhaps just a simple oversight on today’s flight? Anecdotal to be sure, but significant enough to be in the NTSB initial report.

Southwest Airlines’ CEO Gary Kelly said recently “our primary goal, at this point, is to pinpoint the cause or causes of this accident and make any necessary correction” (WSJ Dec 19, 2005). The NTSB will also provide some insight. In the meantime, Southwest's review of flight operations will be a useful tool to see if they can adjust to flying coast to coast with many new pilots as they expand from a 4,000 pilot group to one with over 10,000 in the coming years.

http://www.aviationtoday.com/reports/southwest.htm

http://www.aviationtoday.com/sia/20020701.htm

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113676875085241209-XOg5mhjR05asNu0AUMefYPSB_XU_20060115.html?mod=regionallinks

http://www.ntsb.gov/Pressrel/2005/051215.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05353/624857.stm
 
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so this guy is bitching about SWA f/os being abused because they don't get to play TopGun with the 737?

who cares? man the media will write about anything.
 
He notes our remarkable safty record but thinks we should change.

He remarks about accidents but cites only one.

There is a lot we are going to learn when the NTSB is done, but I will bet any amount of money that the lack of a second HUD won't be cited.
 
Only one sited of 54 SWA ONLY ACC/IND from NTSB.gov

The article only sited one accident, the most recent. But a records search on the NTSB.gov site reveals six pages of accidents and incidents, 54 total. The article would have been too comprehensive for a newspaper article and instead needed to be written in a book format.

But it was summed up quite nicely as SWA was compared to Korean Airlines. And showed the single pilot cockpit structure and lack of automation usage. Plus it highlighted SWA's lack of respect for established BEST OF PRACTICE procedures that have been adopted at the safe airlines around the world.

SWA should not be anyones dream job. And a body count is no indication of safety standards. Non-Fatal accidents are still accidents, SWA was just fortunate enought not to kill anyone in the other many accidents and I hope SWA doesn't kill anyone else but cleans up their act sooner rather than later.

54 records meet your criteria.
A docket of supporting materials may exist for factual and probable cause reports. Please contact Records Management Division. Dockets are not available for preliminary reports.



PDF Reports require the free Adobe Reader for viewing.
Current
Synopsis

PDF
Report(s)

Event
Date

Probable
Cause Released

Location
Make / Model
Regist.
Number

Event
Severity

Type of Air Carrier Operation
and Carrier Name (Doing Business As)

Preliminary
Preliminary
12/8/2005

Chicago Midway, IL
Boeing 737-700
N471
Fatal(1)
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO
Preliminary
Preliminary
10/12/2005

Phoenix, AZ
Boeing 737-7H4
N755SA
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Southwest Airlines Co.
Preliminary
Preliminary
10/12/2005

Phoenix, AZ
Boeing 737-3H4
N624SW
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Southwest Airlines Co.
Preliminary
Preliminary
7/8/2005

Chicago, IL
Boeing 737-7H4
N494WN
[SIZE=+0]Incident [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO
Probable Cause
Factual ,
Probable Cause

4/29/2005
9/13/2005
Little Rock, AR
Boeing 737-700
N727SW
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Southwest Airlines Company (D.B.A. Southwest Airlines Company)
Probable Cause
Factual ,
Probable Cause

1/30/2005
7/7/2005
Seattle, WA
Boeing 737-3H4
N350SW
[SIZE=+0]Incident [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Southwest Airlines Co.
Factual
Factual
9/13/2004

Los Angeles, CA
Boeing 737-3H4
N601WN
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier (D.B.A. Southwest Airlines)
Factual
Factual
8/19/2004

Los Angeles, CA
Boeing 737-7H4
N461WN
[SIZE=+0]Incident [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier SOUTHWEST AIRLINES CO
Probable Cause
Factual ,
Probable Cause

6/4/2004
3/30/2005
Liberal, KS
Boeing 737-7H4
N757LV
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Southwest Airlines Co
Probable Cause
Factual ,
Probable Cause

4/14/2004
12/28/2004
Beach Haven, NJ
Boeing 737-700
N448WN
[SIZE=+0]Nonfatal [/SIZE]
SCHD Part 121: Air Carrier Southwest Airlines Company
1 of 6 Pages


 
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I randomly chose one of those you posted at it said

"The airplane encountered moderate turbulence in cruise flight at 21,000 feet. The passengers were seated and the fasten seatbelt sign was illuminated. The flight attendants were also instructed to take their seats. While attempting to sit down, a flight attendant fell to the floor and suffered a fractured ankle.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

An encounter with turbulence during cruise flight."


Obviously an event that could only happen to SWA.:rolleyes:

It may not be your dream job matt1.1, but I sure live a nice lifestyle.
 
matt.1 - what is the bug up your butt about SWA? Apply and not get hired?
And you're including an overfly by another carrier on a runway SWA was in position and cleared for takeoff? And one with clear air turbulance?

Did you carp on AA this much for LIT? Or anyone else for their runway overuns and other mishaps?
 
Typical SWA distortion of the truth

The point is not the beign turb. incidents but the fact that 54 NTSB investigations have occured.

In the orginal thread article did you notice that SWA was compared to the past Korean Airlines prior to it transformation? That in and of itself is reason enough not to like SWA.

American is a class act while SWA is clown act.
 
Typical anti-SWA lies and inuendo - Matt is just another hater

matt1.1 said:
The point is not the beign turb. incidents but the fact that 54 NTSB investigations have occured.
How many have occured at your airline? The FACT is that a signifiacant number of your "54 investigations" are events like this turbulence encounter. But you want to parade all 54 as if they were all Burbanks. At the same time you fail to mention how many investigations at any other airline, or compare investigations per block hour or flight segment.

In the orginal thread article did you notice that SWA was compared to the past Korean Airlines prior to it transformation? That in and of itself is reason enough not to like SWA.
So because someone compared us to KAL it must be true? That in itself is a reason enough to conclude that you have it in for SWA and that facts have nothing to do with your opinion.

American is a class act while SWA is clown act.

I will not lower myself to hurling insults, but clearly you have a (not so) hidden adgenda.
We stand by our safety record, our culture and our adaptation of "best practices". For example, we encorporate NWA turbulence plots in our weather packages now. We don't do this because of any governement mandate, lawsuit, or coersion. We do this at considerable expence, because it truly is a "best practice" and we want to make our operation as safe as possible. We have not judged the use of autoland to be a best practice, so we don't do it. You want to through spears about safety? Where do you work? Lets compare stats.
 
I wonder if the lack of a HUD for the FO was the cause of the difficulty in getting the TR's deployed? Didn't that take 14 seconds due to some mechanical fault? Do any airlines have HUD's on both sides? AS and QX both fly into some very low vis airports on a routine basis. I'm not sure if they have HUD's on both sides. I think not. They don't seem to have issues.

Overall WN has an excellent safety record given their volume and type of operations.

Although the NTSB has not issued findings my impression is TR deployment issues and possibly inaccurate braking action reports played a larger role than any HUD could play. If the pilot touched down on speed in the TDZE I'm unaware how a HUD on the FO side would help matters.
 
Anyone who thinks the Catagory III HGS approach procedures are single pilot does not know what they are talking about. In fact, the AIII approach is "monitored" by the FO with the enhanced HSI mode and HGS annunciator panel. FOs perform a rejected landing with a Captain incapacitation with each training/proficiency event.
 
FLYPDX you beat me to it, if MATT boy would check for himself he would see in the last 25 years it breaks down to this:

AA= 188 incidents resulting in 439 deaths.
SW= 45 incidents resulting in 1 death.

By the way, AA deaths does not include 9/11 as they should not count. No slam to the AA guys but MATT boy needs to get real.
 
Lets not turn this into a bashfest on AA just because some clown used them as an example. The point is, all airlines either have or will have accidents and incidents. SWA's ratio is certainly no higher than any other.

ANY fatal accident is a tragedy and we all have a responsibility to learn from them and strive to make our profession safer.
 
Lawman said:
Maybe American can explain the art of flying in the mountains of Columbia also.

BTW, those guys wouldn't have put it into a mountain if they had remembered to retract the speed brakes.

I am no fan of WN, but they are just as safe as anyone else.

American's safety record is the worst out of all the major carriers. I especially love their top-notch DC-10 mantainance.
 
Dave Benjamin said:
I wonder if the lack of a HUD for the FO was the cause of the difficulty in getting the TR's deployed? Didn't that take 14 seconds due to some mechanical fault? Do any airlines have HUD's on both sides? AS and QX both fly into some very low vis airports on a routine basis. I'm not sure if they have HUD's on both sides. I think not. They don't seem to have issues.

Overall WN has an excellent safety record given their volume and type of operations.

Although the NTSB has not issued findings my impression is TR deployment issues and possibly inaccurate braking action reports played a larger role than any HUD could play. If the pilot touched down on speed in the TDZE I'm unaware how a HUD on the FO side would help matters.

Jetblue has dual HUDs on the 190.
 
Hey MAT1.1,
Would that be as in Mathew 1-1? The record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ? YGBSM.

16 posts and every one anti SWA, typical.

Pretty big on yourself buddy.

Hey Eaglflip, since you've edited this clowns postings before, how about IP track and see if this clown is one of the cast outs of yor, thanks.
 
flypdx said:
Lets not turn this into a bashfest on AA just because some clown used them as an example. The point is, all airlines either have or will have accidents and incidents. SWA's ratio is certainly no higher than any other.

ANY fatal accident is a tragedy and we all have a responsibility to learn from them and strive to make our profession safer.

If you are referring to me I'm not a clown, AA was just the most recent accident that came to mind. I was not meant to start a bashfest against AA or anyone else. I forgot how mature you people are (not). I in no way meant to insinuate anything bad about AA, I have lots of friends there and would never insult their pilot group. So substitute (airline name goes here) accidents.
 
g-code said:
American's safety record is the worst out of all the major carriers. I especially love their top-notch DC-10 mantainance.

wrong, Korean Air holds that honor.

AA has had their fair share, don't get me wrong. Just remember that ALL airlines go through "accident cycles." The late 90s were AA's.

BTW, you can thank Joe Leonard, Airtran CEO, for the DC-10 crash.
 
with many new pilots as they expand from a 4,000 pilot group to one with over 10,000 in the coming years.

This is the most important message from the article. After all this is an interview board.
Matt1.1 is an A$$. :eek:
 
matt1.1 said:
Plus it highlighted SWA's lack of respect for established BEST OF PRACTICE procedures that have been adopted at the safe airlines around the world.

SWA should not be anyones dream job. Non-Fatal accidents are still accidents, SWA was just fortunate enought not to kill anyone in the other many accidents and I hope SWA doesn't kill anyone else but cleans up their act sooner rather than later.


[/CENTER]

An NTSB search fro 1/1/2001 to present
AA 6pages
NWA 3 pages
United 4 pages
Delta 4 pages
SWA 2 pages

Obviously to any of us who is educated its an indication to the incredibly safe industry we are a part of. Matt1 obviously is hurt for not being hired ( another good call by the People department my apologies to the fine pilots that have too fly with this tool.)
 
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cipolini said:
If you are referring to me I'm not a clown, AA was just the most recent accident that came to mind. I was not meant to start a bashfest against AA or anyone else. I forgot how mature you people are (not). I in no way meant to insinuate anything bad about AA, I have lots of friends there and would never insult their pilot group. So substitute (airline name goes here) accidents.

Very dramatic. Why do you assume my post was directed at you? It wasn't.

Matt is resident clown for his continual SWA bashing using ridiculous comparisons that in no way support his point.

Lawmans post about "the art of flying into mountains" was inappropriate, in my view.
 
Another perfect example of a "journalist" writing about something he knows very little to nothing about. If he's not a 737 pilot, and doesn't quote any who agree with him, then why do I care? He is obviously a SWA military hater with a beef.

The HUD is a great piece of gear. With it you can effortlessly stay right on speed, course, and glide slope, even in gusty poor conditions. Even though it is at least twice as precise as the PFD, it is actually way easier to fly than the PFD. Since it is pretty much an optional piece of equipment, very expensive, and almost never used out of necessity, why would you buy two? It makes sense to just buy one and put it on the captain's side (the guy who usually has more experience, flight time, etc?). It makes perfect sense. Not to mention, ALL 737's are single HUD, not just SWA's.

As far as the hand flying philosophy goes, anyone who has been to any kind of airline training recently will attest that we are preached to about not becoming "automation dependent." I think this philosophy could be a direct contributor to SWA's unmatched safety record. Exactly the opposite of what the author proposes.

He's a biased ignorant fool and it shows.
 
I was talking to a SWA crew a while back about a SWA flight landing in MDW extremely fast. I think the captain said the date was early 05 or 04. He said that the aircraft almost ran off the runway. Any thruth to that? Touchdown around 170 knots. No bashing, just wondering.
 
What?

"Despite recent runway accidents, their safety record is unmatched in the industry. But the recent accidents are certainly of concern in that they could be flagging a trend."

Huh? They need to change what there doing because they have an unmatched safety record?
This guys a moron!

Mat1.1 -

Do an NTSB search on Mesaba Airlines. Not the same corporate culture, but hires the same type of pilot, and encourages hand flying to maintain proficientcy...within limits. No fatal accidents, no hull loses caused by pilots in 60 years!!!
This is not luck!

Automation is a great tool, and is a must in many circumstances to better manage the situation. However, it won't replace a non-proficient pilot.

Considering the fact that not every approach in the US is a CatIIIc ILS, and not every aircraft has autoland capability, I would certainly put my money on the guy/gal who is proficient at hand-flying the aircraft. Not one that does it all the time, in every circumstance, but one that's at it when the time is needed.

Avro
 
matt1.1 said:
The article only sited one accident, the most recent. But a records search on the NTSB.gov site reveals six pages of accidents and incidents, 54 total. The article would have been too comprehensive for a newspaper article and instead needed to be written in a book format.

But it was summed up quite nicely as SWA was compared to Korean Airlines. And showed the single pilot cockpit structure and lack of automation usage. Plus it highlighted SWA's lack of respect for established BEST OF PRACTICE procedures that have been adopted at the safe airlines around the world.

SWA should not be anyones dream job. And a body count is no indication of safety standards. Non-Fatal accidents are still accidents, SWA was just fortunate enought not to kill anyone in the other many accidents and I hope SWA doesn't kill anyone else but cleans up their act sooner rather than later.
The point is not the beign turb. incidents but the fact that 54 NTSB investigations have occured.

In the orginal thread article did you notice that SWA was compared to the past Korean Airlines prior to it transformation? That in and of itself is reason enough not to like SWA.

American is a class act while SWA is clown act.


Matt,

You have identified yourself as another poster who writes without fear of facts or reality.

Now that your credibility has been demolished your future posts will be ignored by those who count.

Good luck in your future endeavors.
 
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