Lowering an already low bar

[jarhead]

I think that most of you are looking at unrealistic "Utopia" Who is going to set these higher qualifications for hiring pilots? As far as I can tell, that is in the realm of either the airline management, or the FAA. As far as I can tell, neither of these entities has a vested reason to do so. If the airlines were to opt for more restrictive quals, it would just raise their costs. Why would they do that? As far as the FAA getting involved, the only motivation I can see for that, are reasons of safety. How can you all as a collective group, influence these entities to change the status quo? More accidents? Airlines wanting to pay higher wages? They are all trying to get concessions now. Why would they want to "raise the bar"?

Again, you need to face reality. Supply and demand will always rule.......period.

 

[blott]

Ok guys,

I read the first page, then skipped all the rest, so it might have already been said. Actually a while back someone already figured out the answer and posted it somewhere else.

Simple idea, not easy to implement:

The airline I work for is a "closed shop" I am REQUIRED to pay union dues. Its my choice if I participate in the union or not. (for the record, I'm very pro union).

Now, that being said, lets look at another profession. Actors. I believe they have something called guild. I'm not really sure what this is, but I think everyone must be a member and sort of gets hired out of it-they have a minimum price-but can be paid at a higher rate.

Why can't we have something like this. We can still have our union, but we can also have a "guild" establising minimum compensation. MINIMUM, not MAX-but it setts the lower level. Our unions will still be there for protection, and negotiating our contracts, just like now. It could be done. If we get enough people at each airline to support it(majority vote) then it could be started. Why would anyone NOT vote for it? Once we get the unions signed on, then anyone not in the guild- would be SCAB material. The guild could set standards for all pilots-from the flight instructors, traffic, cargo, charter, corprate, airline...

Its just a concept...someone else needs to work out the details...

What do you think?

B

 

[blott]

If the bottom line was set, and contracts were negotiated above this level, then if, for example, Comair had the highest pay rates, it would be bragging rights-not a pissing contest...

B

 

[stillaboo]

Once we get the unions signed on, then anyone not in the guild- would be SCAB material.

I think the guild idea is a good one, but how is it determied who gets to be members of the guild and who doesn't?

For instance, PFT pilots; it currently out of favor to get a job this way, but it was ok to do 5 years ago. Or low-timers. Some ops hire them, some don't. Do we evaluate pilots on their experience, or their skills? How does it work in the acting guild?

A better understanding of this guild system is needed before I personally could sign on to it.

Any other good ideas guys?

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
I have been proposing a guild type union system for the last year or so. The pay scales would be set at a national level based upon an agreed upon rate for type 747-BE1900 would pay the same for individual type regardless of the carrier, ie
747=$220.00 per hr, BE1900=$35.00 per hr no matter who you work for. Longivity would follow the individual pilot, ie, 4th year pilot would recieve 4th year pay no matter who he/she works for, longivity within the union/guild, not the employer determines pay rate. The union/guild would start by including all employed pilots regardless of job classification, ie flight instructors thru 747 capt. New membership within the union/guild would be strictly limited, if one union/guild member is unemployed no new members would be admitted. This would limit the current process of furloughs and contract shifting to lower costs. The upside to the employer would be stable costs without the constant escalation of payscales at every contract expiration, creating an employee cost factor that would be entirely predictable, the downside would be that the entire industry would be at the mercy of one unified employee group, without the ability to pit one group of pilots against another. These are just a few ideas/details, armchair style.
PBR

 

[Lear70]

In order to join SAG (Screen Actors Guild) you must have had three paying acting gigs within the last two years. Commercials, stage work, whatever... that's it. You apply, pay your dues $$, then you're a SAG actor, eligible for all SAG screen work and the protections that come with it.

The way SAG members protect themselves is that no one will work on a non-SAG set, period, meaning that ALL hired actors MUST be SAG members, or no one will sign on. When an actor becomes a SAG member, they're given a VERY tough lecture on the dangers of accepting non-SAG work and if they do take it and someone finds out about it, they get thrown out of SAG and never get back in... the end of their career.

It takes a kind of unity that no longer exists in the aviation world - there will always be some kind of low-baller out there who will fly for d*mn near free and undercut everyone else. Until it gets to the point where no one will sign up to undercut the next guy (or gal), we won't be able to fix the problem, and that takes pretty drastic steps. Must have been simpler when you just went out and kneecapped the scabs...

 

[stillaboo]

BE1900=$35.00 per hr no matter who you work for.
PBR

Wow! I hope this was a # you just pulled out of thin air, b/c you aren't gonna' get any current Beech drivers to sign on @ $35. Of course, there are plenty of CFI's who would take it for $25.

Someone can always form a non-guild airline, and pilots will fly there, ruining the whole guild system. Witness Freedom Airlines.

Sad when a ditzy 'hollywood-type' can show a pilot something about fortitude and protecting the profession.

 

[F70pilot]

"Sad when a ditzy 'hollywood-type' can show a pilot something about fortitude and protecting the profession."

If there were only about three airlines in existance and they only used a couple of hundred (max) pilots you could probably form the kind of monopoly on talent that exists in the SAG. I would like to be a "Pilot's Guild" member. I would also like the position to be hereditary. You know, like the European aristocracy.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Stilla,
Of course that number was just a random number to illustrate a point. The pay numbers would be a thouroughly researched and planned pay scale, by members of the guild/union prior to implementation. As with any project of this scope and magnitude, and possible consequences, research and planning are the answer, the devil is in the details! As posted elsewhere this type of union/guild concept would stabilize the industry, insuring that currently employed pilots continued to work, regardless of the state of the company they work for. RPM's are a relatively stable factor when factored over time, pilots and their services would continue to be necessary, the concept of furlough would all but be eliminated. The companies would hate this, given their current ability to reset the pilots senority whenever it is deemed necessary. Example, J4J at any of the participating carriers, mainline pilot furloughed and offered employment at a regional at a substantally reduced pay rate! Sure they retain their senority number, how many USAir guys will ever get back to the mainline anytime soon, or prior to manditory retirement?
Food for thought!
PBR

 

[SWAnnabee]

Here's an idea!!!

Does anyone remember the big ATC strike back in the 1980's. This was a MASSIVE coordination of all ATC personnel, and it got a lot of media attention. Their only failing was that as federal employees they are not allowed to strike and so got fired.

Pilots, on the other hand, are free to strike and DO IT ALL THE TIME. What kind of public, media, and management attention do you think we would get if EVERY REGIONAL PILOT ACROSS THE NATION staged a walkout/strike on the SAME DAY??? THIS WOULD BE HUGE!! MEDIA would eat it up. Management would be FORCED to concede. You could really organize and make some BIG improvements for your and your FAMILY's futures.

Less intelligent and less educated workers have SUCCESSFULLY done this in the past. And they didn't have the communication/coordination assets we have today. JUST USE THIS MESSAGE BOARD. Quit whining and DO SOMETHING! Make a difference. No guts, no glory. Keep doing what you are and NOTHING will change.

I see it posted all the time that unless WE start to change something then NOTHING will change. Hell, FLIGHT ATTENDANTS do this all the time too. With the holidays comming up, soon would be the perfect time. Think about it.

 

[Lear70]

Ummm... that would be called an illegal work action and would get a lot of people who couldn't come up with legitimate absence excuses FIRED and there's nothing they could do about it. If it got on your record in any way it would also look EXCEPTIONALLY bad to the hiring board of an airline that LUVS (hint) the fact that they've always worked out their differences with labor in a legally and morally correct manner.

I echo your frustration, but the only time an organized body of labor is allowed to legally stop working is when they have been released to do so per the RLA. The only thing we can continue to do from a labor standpoint is stick to our guns come contract time and ensure that EVERY UNION MEMBER AT EVERY REGIONAL CARRIER is on the same page for what needs to be accomplished.

p.s. I remember the ATC strike and Reagan's swift and harsh response. I also seem to remember a more recent action by the APA and how well that turned out... $$ OUCH $$

 

[jarhead]

SWAnnabee

I am afraid you are very much mistaken, in your comments that pilots are "free to strike anytime". They most assuredly are not free to strike. They are governed by the Federal Railway Labor Act, and there is a long and arduous process that must be gone through, including mediation, 30 day cooling off period, etc, before they can be released to strike. Even the President of the United States can put the kibosh on an airline strike for up to sixty days if he deems it would hurt the country too much. That said, any one can quit their job. Then your seniority number is gone, and should you ever get an interview again and offered a job with a new airline, you'd be starting over at the rock bottom pay scale. How many senior pilots do you think would want to participate in what would certainly get them fired. You don't think there are thousands of guys out there who the airlines would not hire? Hell, the airlines would love that. They'd get a heck of a lot lower payroll, if all the pilots were newbies, at the bottom of the pay scale.

 

[SWAnnabee]

I stand corrected.

Just frustrated. I hate my current pay/conditions and get frustrated that with all the training and education we have, we should be on par with any other highly skilled professional (ie doctor, radiologist, contractor, computer tech, etc). Just grabbing for straws.

 

[jarhead]

SWAnnabee

It may not be "fair", but it is reality. There are too many who want the pilot jobs that are available. Supply and demand will always rule. Lots of guys would like to play major league baseball or basketball. The reason those pay scales are so high, is that there are a fixed number of franchises and players, and only the very top talent gets that big buck pay. If every high school kid in the country had the same talent as Shaq or Nolan Ryan, you would see low pay in sports too. The fact is, anyone can learn to fly an airplane. It is not that difficult.

 

[Club ORD FO]

The idea of 'educating' the next generation CFIs on how to not lower the bar is a very nice, but very naive idea.



The real problem?

TOO MANY PILOTS. Argue all you want about it, but this is the real problem. How can this be addressed? Let's hear some ideas.

I've got it!! I go to my sister's elementary school to chat to the kids every semester. From now, on I'll tell them I hate my job, and that I expect to be dead before I'm 30 from radiation due to solar flares.

Spread the word!! Scare the kids who will be the pilots of tomorrow!

ACA RJ FO